Advice Needed: Portable 4x5?

sooner

sooner

Well-known
Local time
10:09 AM
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Messages
688
Location
Oklahoma
View My Gallery
Hi Friends. I tried my hand at 4x5 last year with a used Speed Graphic. Got a couple of really nice, detailed b&w portraits, developed by me and scanned using an Epson V700. But I tried a big family shot outdoors at a picnic, at dusk, even with a tripod, and found the limited light and slow shutter speed made for a shallow depth of field and movement by the people, resulting in a crappy picture. I basically gave up on 4x5, feeling that in order to have the necessary depth of field you need a static target and lots of time. But then I see these cool "portable" 4x5 cams, like the razzle conversions, or the Fotoman, or the Gaoersi, and I wonder if I'm missing something. Is there any way to make this work? How do people use these cameras?
 
Most of the cameras you mentioned custom made (or they are mass produced but cost so much that they might as well be custom-made). The high price they command have to do with the quality of the workmanship.

They are "portable" because you're sacrificing the ground-glass composing and instead rely on the built in rangefinder. You would use it no differently than a 35mm rangefinder camera, only you'd have a bigger negative as the result.

The Polaroid conversion ones are actually not difficult to do as long as you don't mind some metal/wood-work and possibly dealing with light-leaks. I am doing one using an older model of Polaroid.
 
With a working rangefinder and two shutters (leaf in the lens/focal plane in the body) your Speed Graphic is as hand held as any 4x5 needs to be. With the Kodak Ektar 127mm lens your get semi-wide (=35mm on 35mm film) coverage, a liitle extra DOF and relatively fast handling. Attach a Grafmatic back and get 6 shots at a time. This was THE newspaper photojournalist camera for decades. It can work for you. Make it happen.
Have fun!

oh, and Kodak Tmax 400 which is a REAL 400 speed film and fine grain too. Develop in Xtol 1:3. Enlarge as big as you please.

From Will & I, your 4x5 neighbors down south in Soggy Texas!
 
... what Wayne wrote. Tho I prefer the Crown since it's a lighter handheld camera. The camera can be set up with a flash, so you shouldn't really have issues with slow speeds for portraits using a flash. As he noted, this was the "kit camera" for pro news photographers.
 
With 400 film it shouldn't be too much of a problem IMO even allowing for the slowish characteristics of LF lenses.

I thought about a Razzle a while ago but when it came down to it the advantages were few over my current Crown Graphic ... certainly not enough to justify the cost and I think the Crown is an excellent camera for hand held shooting.

And don't forget, even with these conversion cameras like the Razzle you're still going to be working with slowish lenses.
 
Keep in mind that Speed Graphics and similar press cameras were used in their heyday for just the type of group shots that you had problems with, using B/W films slower than what we have available, with good success. But powerful flashbulbs were used back then, in order to properly illuminate the scene. The nice thing about bulbs is lots of light output in a compact, lightweight package. Today, you'd have to settle for a multiple head flash setup for such a shot. I think the problem isn't your camera, it's not enough light.

~Joe
 
As others have mentioned, you already have a nice handheld LF camera. What I'd like to add is that maybe you need more experience at taking that particular kind of shot - the large group in the evening. The problems you experienced have little if anything to do with the camera, or lens, or shutter. You would have had the same issues with a tiny-format RF, just getting a smaller neg. Investigate your choice of film, the exposure you used, and the other normal photographic variables before blaming the equipment. Consider the use of flash if the evening was dark or gloomy. Of course, if you just want anther camera go right ahead and get one!
 
The problem with cameras like the Razzle IMO is they seem to be a little hard to move on if you decide they're not for you. I was checking out second hand ones fairly recently and some of them had been for sale for a fair while.
 
Another vote for a Crown and faster/wider lens (Ektar). While this is RFF and flash gets trashed here often you might think about one. With between the lens shutters they sync at all speeds. With that much negative you can push the film a stop and not loose too much. As Keith said selling some of the high end 4x5 can be hard (read you might loose a shirt or three). While a Speed lets me use some cool long glass (without shutters built in) the weight and winding makes me give it a thumbs down for a carry everywhere camera.

B2 (;->
 
I have an Alpenhaus, and it works out pretty good. I'll second 400 speed film, although, I do not use it much outside the studio.

I have no idea what the second hand marked is, but I have a feeling if I sell, I'll loose about 40%!

Dave
 
JoeV said:
Keep in mind that Speed Graphics and similar press cameras were used in their heyday for just the type of group shots that you had problems with, using B/W films slower than what we have available, with good success. But powerful flashbulbs were used back then, in order to properly illuminate the scene. The nice thing about bulbs is lots of light output in a compact, lightweight package. Today, you'd have to settle for a multiple head flash setup for such a shot. I think the problem isn't your camera, it's not enough light.

~Joe
Click to expand...

Actually, you don't need to settle for a multiple head flash. Not all the good flash bulb handle flashes have been converted for Luke Skywalker. They still exist and you can still get flash bulbs, either from ebay or from a couple of companies in Europe (see comment #30 on this thread - http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87421&page=2 ) For bulb flash you either need a lens with M sync, or sufficient darkness to use the B or T setting. Bulbs tend to give a different look as well as better coverage.

4x5 is a little heavier, and you will find changing cut film holders a bit of an inconvenience (but doable). A grafmatic back will help, but keep some cut film holders for changing to a different ISO or from color to b/w and back again. For real dark, Kalart actually made some RF adapters with lights to let you know when you were focused. However, they are really hard to find.

If you want the big negative, but not quite as much weight, consider a 9x12 folder. Even with an RF they are a little lighter. You may need to clean the shutter, you may need to adjust the RF. You will find it harder to find cut film holders. All I have seen are metal, so you tend to lose some of the weight advantage of the camera to the holders. I have never seen a grafmatic for 9x12, but they may exist. You can get 6x9 and prbably 6x7 roll film holders for them. Not many of them had flash connections for the shutter. If you are handy, the IBSOR shutters lend themselves to home adaption (in fact, I have one on an RF VAG that was orginally made with a flash connection). I know some 9x12 were made to interchange lenses, but the one I have, I haven't come across any other lenses for it yet.

I like the 9x12 for weight and overall size, but I would really suggest you stay with the 4x5 and bulb flash. Much more versatility.
 
oftheherd said:
For real dark, Kalart actually made some RF adapters with lights to let you know when you were focused. However, they are really hard to find.
Click to expand...

Worse is that most of these beasts (a collimated lamp that shines into the rear of the rangefinder, projecting two bars or dots at the scenery that converge into one at the RF distance) co-use the fancy high-voltage flash trigger battery. These batteries haven't been made for a decade or more and are only obtainable for bizarre prices and in a rather questionable state of decay. You can work around for the flash by glueing button cells into rolls, given the very low power requirements of the trigger, but these workarounds get expensive or might even blow up on you if you use them to feed a bright bulb...

Some LF hackers have successfully replaced the Kalart lamps with laser pointers - that probably is the most reasonable option to get that reverse rangefinder focusing going today.
 
I've had them all (Graflexs, Linhofs, Polas) and love Dean Jones' Razzle Polaroid conversions but in practice it is Apples to Oranges... the Crown/Speed box is more "boxier" by a couple of inches while the Polaroid conversions are longer and sometimes a bit funkier to use. For $250 you can shoot a Crown/Speed and even the older Ektars/Optars/Xenars are fine lenses so if money is an issue then it's a no brainer. A Grafmatic makes it easy to burn through film, I think too easily actually, it adds up $$$.

In the end, shooting handheld 4x5 in low to moderate light without a flash is a bit of a crapshoot as to whether you can balance shutter speed versus subject movement versus depth of field. Some group shot situations simply won't work, which is why the old press photographers resorted to using large flash bulbs for everything, even if the light quality verged on horrid.

Sure if it is mid-day in New Mexico and you hop outta the car to pop one off at 1/250 f/22 then any monkey can shoot 4x5 handheld. But try to be consistently focused where intended standing on a bouncy bed over a drunken naked chick in a hotel at 1/15 f/4.7 and let me know how you do ;-) (uh... that is an exaggerated example for dramatic purposes.)

After years of shooting handheld rangefinder 4x5 in funky light, I went back to always using a tripod and ground glass loupe focusing. It loses a little spontaneity but I'm better at directing, and when I want to work fast in low light handheld -- well the AF DSLR shines at that, better than a Leica or anything else.
 
sevo said:
... co-use the fancy high-voltage flash trigger battery. These batteries haven't been made for a decade or more and are only obtainable for bizarre prices and in a rather questionable state of decay.
Click to expand...

If you are refering to the 22.5v batteries, I don't know if those batteries are in current production or not, but they are available via mailorder in US for not much money and the ones I've bought were in excellent condition. RadioShack online is one source. In the past I bought from an online battery warehouse and had same success.
 
sooner said:
Hi Friends. I tried my hand at 4x5 last year with a used Speed Graphic. Got a couple of really nice, detailed b&w portraits, developed by me and scanned using an Epson V700. But I tried a big family shot outdoors at a picnic, at dusk, even with a tripod, and found the limited light and slow shutter speed made for a shallow depth of field and movement by the people, resulting in a crappy picture.
Click to expand...

Y'know, I really love using old vintage cameras, but I also know when to back down, that is when there are much better modern options if it's the *picture* that I am after.

Don't give up 4x5, you just need to know its limitations (daylight only perhaps?)
 
Gumby said:
If you are refering to the 22.5v batteries, I don't know if those batteries are in current production or not, but they are available via mailorder in US for not much money
Click to expand...

Do any of them ship overseas? The cheapest source I located hereabouts wanted ten Euro apiece, minimum order a box of ten, plus VAT and shipping, and will only deal with you if you are a registered corporation.
 
I'm sort of surprised that no one is talking about tripods here. The issue is lens speed and available emulsions. If you have a 3 second exposure but the camera is well supported, you can tell people to hold their breath and not blink. It's more of a set up, but not impossible. Think of all those 19th century photo portraits. Of course, many of the subjects had their heads in hidden braces so that they could sit still for minutes at a time. ASA 6? That's your high speed film from 1880. In my view, you don't need a different camera, you need a camera support.

If portability is the issue, there are some nice cameras by Toho that are lighter than the Graphic you are using. But the expense of that stuff is like mountain climbing gear. You pays for the lightness. . . .
 
sevo said:
Do any of them ship overseas? The cheapest source I located hereabouts wanted ten Euro apiece, minimum order a box of ten, plus VAT and shipping, and will only deal with you if you are a registered corporation.
Click to expand...

I will be attempting to order some for some Tilt-a-mite style flashes I have soon so I will check. What type (numbr) exactely is it you are looking for? There are several types of 22.5 volt batteries.
 
Benjamin Marks said:
I'm sort of surprised that no one is talking about tripods here. The issue is lens speed and available emulsions. If you have a 3 second exposure but the camera is well supported, you can tell people to hold their breath and not blink. It's more of a set up, but not impossible. Think of all those 19th century photo portraits. Of course, many of the subjects had their heads in hidden braces so that they could sit still for minutes at a time. ASA 6? That's your high speed film from 1880. In my view, you don't need a different camera, you need a camera support.

If portability is the issue, there are some nice cameras by Toho that are lighter than the Graphic you are using. But the expense of that stuff is like mountain climbing gear. You pays for the lightness. . . .
Click to expand...

That's a good point. But with a large flash reflector and bulbs, it is less of an issue.

I am also surprised no one has (yet) mentioned ISO 3200 or 6400. With a 4x5, it is surprising what you can get. I once saw a 6400 ISO shot lit by the match the subject was using to light a cigarette. There was amazing detail in the shot. That isn't usually a preferred way to go, but is an option that takes good advantage of the negative real estate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom