So, I'm going to Egypt...

So, I'm going to Egypt...

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I just got back to Sweden from Egypt six hours ago. I was in the very touristy red sea resort Sharm el Sheikh for a week. The only thing that happened there was internet and cell phone outages. I had a trip to Cairo booked on thursday, but that was cancelled. Brought my M2 and a heap of film to use in Cairo that didn't get used. But I will not even pretend that my inconvenience matters in relation to the events unfolding. I wish the egyptian people the best of luck. They need it...
 
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then why the deception? the deception in itself would indicate they are trying to fool somebody.
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Fooling international head lines perhaps, inciting foreign office declarations, but spreading chaos is, was and always has been a known strategy to cut off the moderate part of the masses out on the street. Will it work? We'll see. Egypt ain't Tunesia but a very powerful state with lots of "friends".
 
i suppose so. therein lies my original question...

do they really think they are fooling anyone?

all in all not really relevant. my thoughts go out to all those on the streets of Egypt and Yemen including the journalists.
 
I was also astonished that it took a few days before Mubarak made any broadcast or appeal or whatever. As though there was some sort of denial process going on at the top, while unimaginative actions were taken by lower level guys. Remember Romania ?
 
Not wanting to polemize with you, but fear is a far stronger sentiment than feeling fooled...

I am anything but a hero, but I know I can "turn around" in a given situation. And that's what seems to be happenning in Egypt. And that is why the government seems to be playing the "all or nothing" card.

(Sorry for my English, it's not as good as I'd wish it would);)

And yes, my best whishes to the people on the streets right now. Who were those analists saying that the arab world was not able to take the reigns of its own future...?
 
emraphoto said:
i find myself completely fascinated by the tension between the masses and the minority of folks who hold wealth and power. i would love to be in Egypt although i completely understand the motive behind canceling.

Raid, having been there, what do you see as plausible outcomes in Egypt? i am surprised at everyones tepid measurement of The Brotherhood given their history in the region. is this same assessment held in Egypt amongst the masses?
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It's nothing to post about, but I think that it is a very bleak future for the middle east. What we are witnessing could be just a first step of a larger process.
 
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That's a damn sad thought. The middle east has such a rich culture and strong people. Let's not forget what brought the current president of Egypt to power 30 years back. In many ways it should not be a shock but it will be.

B2
 
raid said:
It's nothing to post about, but I think that it is a very bleak future for the middle east. What we are witnessing could be just a first step of a larger process.
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I think that this is 100% true, but at some point the people of the region need to decide what they want and the West needs to stand back and deal with what results. Unfortunately, there is a long history of war. Perhaps the same could be said of Europe, but they have learned that working together results in a better life than constant war. We can hope that the people of the Middle East will come around to that point of view. History doesn't support optimism.
 
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I don't see any positive aspect in the current situation for the people. Where should money come from? Too many people for that desert country. They have to buy a lot of food to feed the people that's why the country has this amount of debts. No new government could change this. These options make it easy for fundamentalists to gain power in the coming years.

The german foreign ministry still only has a warning for traveling to the big cities. I don't understand this and why still people travel to hurghada.
 
I have to echo that sentiment. The loss of the current ruling regime in Egypt would be a very bad thing. Frankly I am shocked at the perception of the Muslim brotherhood both here and in western media. Wolf in Sherpa clothing comes to mind.

The west needs desperately to support the current regime and offer logistics and resources to help any transitions that the public requires.
 
emraphoto said:
Frankly I am shocked at the perception of the Muslim brotherhood both here and in western media. Wolf in Sherpa clothing comes to mind.
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In that case the wolf seems to have been wearing those clothes for eighty-something years, missing a lot of opportunities where he could have shed them.

Basically the Muslim Brothers are a religious moral-conservative political movement. Extremists regularly drop out of the Muslim Brothers (consequently joining the Gamaa, Hizb at-Tahrir, local Egyptian militant groups such as that where Ayman az-Zawahiri came from etc.) precisely because they are disappointed that they aren't advocating this kind of religious extremism and/or violence.

To be honest I think a lot of people in the West are afraid of them because mainly they have "Muslim" in their name, without consideration for their actual political history. I guess in most Western conservative parties you could find religious people who hold the same views, without posing a threat to civilization.

If you have actual wolves around, it doesn't help to look at everything that isn't a wolf and pronounce that it's probably a wolf in disguise too. Egypt has its fair share of radicals - we should look at them where they are (Gamaa, Takfir wa-Hijra etc.) as opposed to where they are largely not.
 
Well it appears we have a different understanding of the Muslim Brotherhoods history. The motives and goals of Mr Qutb and that of the brotherhood have not changed. They may have changed outfits but underneath it's the same.

I have spent a great deal of time in Islamic countries and communities, including North Africa. I have entrusted my life to them on numerous occasions and I assure you I do not suffer from "Muslim boogeyman" syndrome.
 
emraphoto said:
Well it appears we have a different understanding of the Muslim Brotherhoods history. The motives and goals of Mr Qutb and that of the brotherhood have not changed. They may have changed outfits but underneath it's the same.

I have spent a great deal of time in Islamic countries and communities, including North Africa. I have entrusted my life to them on numerous occasions and I assure you I do not suffer from "Muslim boogeyman" syndrome.
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I guess you speak of Sayyid Qutb there (and not his brother Muhammad, who wrote later and mainly in Saudi Arabia). If you look at his writing, you can see that in his earlier works, such as "Social Justice in Islam" from 1949, he's probably closer to it than in the later works, such as his commentary of the Koran and in "Milestones"; the latter I would classify more as a book along the lines of the ideology of the Gamaa or Hizb at-Tahrir. This radicalization is to no small part due to his ten years spent in an Egyptian prison.

As a result of this radicalization, his ideology, as expressed mainly in his later works, are a main intellectual focal point for those who are disappointed with the Muslim Brothers.

I'm certainly not one to defend militant Islamism (and, probably unlike most posters here, I have some first-hand working experience that brought me into contact with it). In a country that has groups like the Gamaa, the Islamic Jihad, al-Takfir wa l-Hijra, and Hizb al-Tahrir, the Egyptian Muslim Brothers are actually the much less militant and more approachable lot. From the point of view of a Western observer, it seems that radicals like Ayman al-Zawahiri or Umar Abd al-Rahman regularly drop out of the Muslim Brothers - if anything, this illustrates that apparently inside the Muslim Brothers there is not too much of a broad support base for this kind of violent extremism. I can see them participating in some kind of post-Mubarak Egyptian political environment with much less toothache than any of the others, moreover since they actually have some history of political participation and parliamentary representation in Egypt. And there is also the simple fact that many Egyptians do respect and appreciate them - if we want to be serious about democracy and self-determination (rather than supporting dictators simply because we appreciate how they suppress the people we don't like) there is simply no way of ignoring this sentiment, no matter whether we personally agree with it or not.
 
please understand that i engage in this conversation as i am A/ forever questing for knowledge and B/ i do support, 100%, the need for self determination.

i realize that the current regime in Egypt needs to go. where i grow concerned is the thought of the regime (current) being allowed to lose all power/validity and the creation of a void where a subsequent rush to fill it ensues. the outcomes that seem likely are military coup, civil conflict or the rise to power of the Muslim Brotherhood who is widely believed to have very little real public support in the region. in all accords, it is an uprising credited entirely to the young, educated and tech savvy crowd and the only options for governance seem a million miles away from their needs. the other concern would be that the call is for stronger economic ties to the rest of the world and i don't know whether the Botherhood would be well received throughout Europe and beyond.

again, these are questions more than they are opinions i am unprepared to sway from.

what i cannot shake is a nagging feeling that The Brotherhood's actions, over the past 30-40 years, have been to present itself as a moderate voice/option when in reality it's goals have not changed. this would certainly be the path i would advocate for if if was a member. radicals such as al-Zawahiri were never going to serve the movement well. specifically in a global political climate united in its concern over radical/militant Islamic movements.

if i recall correctly, Qutb's words and actions certainly became more "heated" after his arrest and imprisonment upon return to Egypt. i don't think the end goal varied much?

i appreciate your time and thoughts in this discussion. i am not one comforted by moving forward blindly.
 
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