Charlie Lemay
Well-known
I just posted the ZoneSimple section of my web site with FREE Downloads. It's a way to provide access to this information for former students and anyone else who might be interested in a simple way of applying the Zone System advanced black and white film exposure and development technique. ZoneSimple explains the processes I've been teaching since the mid 90's and provides FREE downloads so anyone can try them out. I teach the Zone System more like cooking than physics with "Recipes" for Sunny Days and Cloudy Days/Open Shade. Once you try it you'll be amazed how much more shadow detail and highlight detail you can achieve using these processes instead of what the manufacturer's tell us to do with their products.
Please pass this link on to anyone else who might be interested in what film can still do.
Enter zonesimple.com or charlielemay.net into your browser window, which takes you to my web site. Click enter, then click ZoneSimple to get the best negatives you can make for darkroom printing or scanning.
Please pass this link on to anyone else who might be interested in what film can still do.
Enter zonesimple.com or charlielemay.net into your browser window, which takes you to my web site. Click enter, then click ZoneSimple to get the best negatives you can make for darkroom printing or scanning.
pgeobc
Established
Thanks, Charlie. I'll look it over.
JRG
Well-known
Thanks, Charlie. I too will ponder a bit.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
That's pretty neat, Charlie. I have a related question, although it's not directly related to your specific downloads.
I use a couple of Rolleiflex and they have the ability to set an EV and then lock the shutter and aperture together which might make for an interesting application of your charts. However the question in my mind is that I see particular emphasis on light reflectance (which is how most meters work) but nothing on incident metering.
I'm thinking that using an incident meter might overcome a lot of the problems you identify with 'normal' metering?
I use a couple of Rolleiflex and they have the ability to set an EV and then lock the shutter and aperture together which might make for an interesting application of your charts. However the question in my mind is that I see particular emphasis on light reflectance (which is how most meters work) but nothing on incident metering.
I'm thinking that using an incident meter might overcome a lot of the problems you identify with 'normal' metering?
biakalt
Long Tran
very interesting. im getting to know zone system too. thanks a lot for your efforts!
gb hill
Veteran
I read the book a few years ago "35mm for the Zone System" or something like that. I found it hard to understand being a novice. I'll give your thoughts a read over...Thanks for this! I need all the help I can get. I'm tired of all my photos looking gray.
But one problem I need to overcome is that ttl meter!
But one problem I need to overcome is that ttl meter!damien.murphy
Damien
Thanks Charlie, will have a look over it. Has come at the right time, as I give the M3 a respite from the shelf
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
I read the book a few years ago "35mm for the Zone System" or something like that. I found it hard to understand being a novice. I'll give your thoughts a read over...Thanks for this! I need all the help I can get. I'm tired of all my photos looking gray.
I think that's probably the one I have - "Zone System for 35mm Photographers" by Carson Graves. It's very detailed and seeks to translate the Ansel Adams 'system' from LF to 35mm use. Big problem is the 36 exposures to a roll that we live with rather than single sheet film packs. I'm sure the information in it is OK but difficult to use for all but the most dedicated.
I think what Charlie has offered is a very useful "rule of thumb" approach which is much easier to apply, although he does talk of having two bodies and exposing and developing differently for bright sunny days and cloudy days. I think Les McLean advocates a similar approach but if I remember correctly in his case he uses an MF (maybe Hasselblad) with different film backs to achieve the same result. See his books "Creative Black & White Photography" and "Creative Exposure Control". Good reading, both, but Charlie's simplified approach is certainly worth a try in my opinion, especially if you have and can be bothered to carry two bodies.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
If I've understood what Charlie is driving at, it's a simplified version of the following - but he's approached it from a different angle. What I've set out below would work best with a spot meter - definitely NOT an averaging meter. Charlie has used the Sunny 16 rule of thumb as his basis rather than a meter reading. No reason why it wouldn't work just fine.
His "Sunny Day" exposure table is effectively the same as metering at box speed for the shadows and opening up two stops. (High Contrast Scene)
His "Extreme Sunny Day" is the same but opening up four stops. (Very High Contrast Scene).
He then compensates for the overexposure of highlights by cutting the development time to 64% of base time or 40% of base time respectively.
You could just as easily have a "Not So Extreme Sunny Day" and open up by only three stops and adjust the development time by three steps of 20% each to arrive at approximately 51% of base time.
His "Cloudy Day" exposures (Low Contrast Scene) are based on box speed and metering off a grey card or the palm of the hand and opening up one stop. He compensates for this amount of overexposure by cutting the development time to 80% of base time.
I may have it wrong but that's what it looks like to me.
His "Sunny Day" exposure table is effectively the same as metering at box speed for the shadows and opening up two stops. (High Contrast Scene)
His "Extreme Sunny Day" is the same but opening up four stops. (Very High Contrast Scene).
He then compensates for the overexposure of highlights by cutting the development time to 64% of base time or 40% of base time respectively.
You could just as easily have a "Not So Extreme Sunny Day" and open up by only three stops and adjust the development time by three steps of 20% each to arrive at approximately 51% of base time.
His "Cloudy Day" exposures (Low Contrast Scene) are based on box speed and metering off a grey card or the palm of the hand and opening up one stop. He compensates for this amount of overexposure by cutting the development time to 80% of base time.
I may have it wrong but that's what it looks like to me.
Charlie Lemay
Well-known
Thanks all.
An incident meter works fine, but you will still have to use a new ISO to get the same results. I actually add 20% development on cloudy days, to get more density in the highlights.
I personally shoot Sunny Day extreme for nearly all my film work and use predominantly Fuji Acros.
An incident meter works fine, but you will still have to use a new ISO to get the same results. I actually add 20% development on cloudy days, to get more density in the highlights.
I personally shoot Sunny Day extreme for nearly all my film work and use predominantly Fuji Acros.
Charlie Lemay
Well-known
Leigh,
When I began teaching myself the Zone System, it didn't take long to realize that when you use a incident meter on a sunny day, you just keep getting the same reading over and over again, because the light isn't changing accept at the beginning and the end of day, or when clouds pass in front of the Sun. In open shade your incident meter is likely to read a bright sky leading to under exposure. This is why I prefer to use the Sunny 16 rule and meter the way I do. My students all have Pentax K-1000 camera's that the School provides, so that is another reason for doing things the way I've suggested. Why carry an additional meter, if there is already one in the camera that can be made to yield a reading equivalent to an incident reading. If you're using a medium or large format camera without a meter then taking a meter along isn't necessary at all on a sunny day, if you want to shoot in full sunlight and get much more detail.
When I began teaching myself the Zone System, it didn't take long to realize that when you use a incident meter on a sunny day, you just keep getting the same reading over and over again, because the light isn't changing accept at the beginning and the end of day, or when clouds pass in front of the Sun. In open shade your incident meter is likely to read a bright sky leading to under exposure. This is why I prefer to use the Sunny 16 rule and meter the way I do. My students all have Pentax K-1000 camera's that the School provides, so that is another reason for doing things the way I've suggested. Why carry an additional meter, if there is already one in the camera that can be made to yield a reading equivalent to an incident reading. If you're using a medium or large format camera without a meter then taking a meter along isn't necessary at all on a sunny day, if you want to shoot in full sunlight and get much more detail.
david.elliott
Well-known
Charlie,
Thank you for the links to your simplified zone system.
Quick question. How do you handle indoor lighting with your system?
Thank you for the links to your simplified zone system.
Quick question. How do you handle indoor lighting with your system?
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Yep, sorry. I didn't read your Process notes carefully enough! So it's 120% x base time.
[QUOTE: ....... when you use a incident meter on a sunny day, you just keep getting the same reading over and over again, because the light isn't changing except at the beginning and the end of day, or when clouds pass in front of the Sun. In open shade your incident meter is likely to read a bright sky leading to under exposure. This is why I prefer to use the Sunny 16 rule and meter the way I do. QUOTE]
Yep. That makes sense.
[QUOTE:Why carry an additional meter, if there is already one in the camera that can be made to yield a reading equivalent to an incident reading? If you're using a medium or large format camera without a meter then taking a meter along isn't necessary at all on a sunny day if you want to shoot in full sunlight and get much more detail. QUOTE]
So if conditions change, I take it you either stop taking images until full sun returns or you switch to your cloudy day method using a second body???
Charlie Lemay
Well-known
David, I use the Studio Lighting recipe. Halve the ISO for 1 stop more exposure and 20% less development time.
charjohncarter
Veteran
Thanks Charles, I will be on your site in five minutes.
charjohncarter
Veteran
You did not explain why you cannot use Tmax type films with this method.
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
Very well done..thanks for putting this all in one spot!
I do more or less the same thing with harsh, soft, normal, low and very low light as my catgories with ASA ranging from 100 to 1600 and times in tank from 14 min to one hour (rodial). I will read your info in more detail and refine and practice
I have been known to carry 2 bodies one loaded for harsh light, 100 asa, and another for very soft/dark, either 200 or 400 asa. This works very well outdoors in bright sun tha provides deep shadows as well.
I do more or less the same thing with harsh, soft, normal, low and very low light as my catgories with ASA ranging from 100 to 1600 and times in tank from 14 min to one hour (rodial). I will read your info in more detail and refine and practice
I have been known to carry 2 bodies one loaded for harsh light, 100 asa, and another for very soft/dark, either 200 or 400 asa. This works very well outdoors in bright sun tha provides deep shadows as well.
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Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I've read it all, and honestly it is just so much easier and more consistent to just do it right by using a spotmeter and metering the shadows for exposure and the light tones for developing.
Charlie's system for sunny days is just guessing and simply doesn't work. A lot of the time, you'll get lucky and get the shot, but if you need consistent perfect results, no exceptions, you'll eventually get burned. The Sunny f16 rule is worthless in my experience because the actual brightness of full sun varies considerably in different parts of the world, even different parts of the USA. Here in northern Indiana, bright sun is a stop dimmer than it is in New Mexico (where I lived for a couple years).
The fact is that if you want to do it right, there is no substitute, no shortcut, for old fashioned hard work.
Charlie's system for sunny days is just guessing and simply doesn't work. A lot of the time, you'll get lucky and get the shot, but if you need consistent perfect results, no exceptions, you'll eventually get burned. The Sunny f16 rule is worthless in my experience because the actual brightness of full sun varies considerably in different parts of the world, even different parts of the USA. Here in northern Indiana, bright sun is a stop dimmer than it is in New Mexico (where I lived for a couple years).
The fact is that if you want to do it right, there is no substitute, no shortcut, for old fashioned hard work.
FrankS
Registered User
Chris, it is presented as a simplified system. I'm not sure you can make a blanket statement that it "simply doesn't work". There are examples given that show that it does.
Sunny 16 does work and is consistent in the temperate latitudes, not so much in the polar or equatorial regions, or regions at high altitudes or in highly industrialized regions.
Sunny 16 does work and is consistent in the temperate latitudes, not so much in the polar or equatorial regions, or regions at high altitudes or in highly industrialized regions.
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BillBingham2
Registered User
Charlie,
Where do you teach?
Great site, I've got to dive into it but at first scan it looks really good.
Next year my oldest son will be taking photography in High School, I can not wait.
B2
Where do you teach?
Great site, I've got to dive into it but at first scan it looks really good.
Next year my oldest son will be taking photography in High School, I can not wait.
B2