The Chinese and Leica

I've also gotten the impression that many young Chinese are very interestred in film...
I've been a guitar player all my life (well, 55 years, anyway) and I remember that in the '80s and '90s all the really high-end guitars were shipping to Japan at ridiculous prices. The one I wanted to buy was a Gibson L-5 CES, and there was just nothing available used for under about $10,000. Probably higher now. Left us professional pickers right out of the market.
 
sonofdanang said:
So, let me get this straight: Less than a dozen anecdotal references makes a sufficient sample set for generalizations about a nation's population?

I wonder what it would look like if you broke real data out based on actual sales and correlated it to socioeconomic stratification...irrespective of borders.

Seems to me that most data-collecting organizations have established that mostpeople everywhere, not just in China, can't afford basic needs while a very few ride the very top of the wealth-train.
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But the point is that 'very few' of one billion Chinese people still is a heck of a lot of people!

When I was young, I read a book by Erich von Däniken on the chances of us being alone in the universe. In it, he used a calculation method of 'minimal amounts': Lets say as little as half a percent of a billion Chinese make it big, that would be 5 million people. Lets say that half a percent of them moves into the collectible Leica market. That would be 25,000 new Leica collectors.

Now appoint those 25,000 collectors to the people selling collectible gear online. I'd say that those anecdotes do tell something then. Don't forget we cannot even include the increase in sales at reputable dealers, or offline! Earlier on in the thread it was established that buying there is part of the Chinese culture because there one can be certain that it costs big bucks and that was the buyers intention to begin with.
 
Lately there has been a growing chorus of finger pointing at China for driving up the prices of Leica's. While I don't doubt there is growing demand for luxury names, one of them called Leica, China alone can't possibly be the sole reason why prices have increased.

Prices have steadily climbed up from very low prices. Could the low prices have been affected by a recent recession? The remainder left behind when professionals switched to digital? Could the increase in prices have been affected by the advent of digital Leica cameras and mirrorless systems that free lenses from film bodies? The "Lomo effect" where people started out with cheaper film cameras and liked them enough to work their way up the quality ladder?

It has been mentioned before that there is a difference between what the serious collectors worldwide, not just China alone, seek in spending lots of money in terms of "collecting". The rare, the pristine, and untouched models that sell for so much. Not my M2 and M3 that has been touched by a commoner.

So the "user" bodies and lenses have been going up from what seemed like the lowest price anybody from any age group could remember (taking inflation into account). With a finite supply of previous generation film Leica models made (not MP or M7) spanning the time they were built to today the number can only decrease.

Leica M prices have been going up but what about Leica Screwmount or Leica Reflex systems? Are they all rising at the same rate or one more than the other? It sounds like there is more concern about all the M3s and Rigid Summicrons in the world destined to languish in a cabinet in China but less so about a IIIC and 50 Elmar facing the same fate.

Are we feeling jealousy over the price, speed of sale, and new owner of cameras we love have shifted in a different direction? One that we are not entirely familiar with.
 
btgc said:
Have heard about major car makers setting up plants in China to cater for growing demand - and one could think Chinese would drive their own makes and protect market from foreign cars.
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Interesting. I just heard a NPR radio segment last week that stated the Chinese are up to their chop-sticks in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

One Chinese gentleman they interviewed stated that traveling to one city by car took him about 2 hrs. By contrast, he said he can take a bullet train and get there in 29 minutes 😱

On a different note, I have a friend who has been a professional photographer for over 40 yrs. who has been to mainland China several times in the past 3-4 years. He says the Chinese he's encountered have a genuine interest in photography, both film and digital. He has given lectures to amateur groups in Shanghai as well as some professional photographers.

Even though China's population is vast by any stretch of the imagination, there are still many in China that do not possess the means to purchase no more than the bare essentials. Having said that, the Chinese government is buying up U.S. steel to build up its infrastructure and build new cities. They don't have scrap steel that can be recycled and reused, therefore; in essence, China is in a stage in its growth cycle, similar to that of the United States between the wars, and Japan after WWII.

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, the Chinese that do have money have to purchase the goods and quality they seek outside of China. Once China gets its economic house in order and begins to become more consumer oriented that situation will turn around.
 
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Some users are mentioning statistics and fact finding, but to my original post. What statistics are we basing this on? Because some users are claiming that some of their stuff happens to be heading toward the East? Maybe not a coincidence but this website itself is a niche user forum to a crowd who uses "rangefinder" cameras, a rather tiny niche in the US user market. While back in Asia, although also a niche market among the DSLR crowd, we are seeing a larger crowd of users who appreciate and like older things, such as the Japanese and Chinese. Plus the boom and popularity of street photography in Asia.

World e-commerce is a hella'va thing to be able to reach global customers. It just so happens that most of the stuff we seek happens to already be there. Thus, explaining the larger amount of resellers on ebay from Japan and HK.
 
I have no idea how true it is, but I read that their plan is to urbanize 300 million people in China over the next decade. 300 million... 😱
 
I was recently in HK the prior weekend and can say the Gucci, Prada, Channel, etc shops had lines outside all of which were Chinese from the mainland. The occupancy limits were being reached that they had to control the crowds. Everyone online already had bags of stuff from other luxury retailers; seems there was a tour bus that gave tours to luxury shops and not landmarks or sites.

But to juxtapose to the Leica boutique I passed by, there were only 2 people in the shop. One was buying the latest v-lux with matching leather case (woman shopper) and the other was looking at a case and bag for his M9 (male shopper). I do know film is alive in Asia as is photography in general; more Holga and Diana cams abound that I care to see.

So I don't know where you would find such data that would confirm the Chinese are buying up the Leicas, but you can say that for any wealthy group. It's just that they have been in the news lately, so is it assumed that they are the only ones with money? I don't think that is the case.
 
Even if the data being offered here is purely subjective and anecdotal, I also think it's entirely plausible.

All I know is that my humble little M6 + presentation box that I bought a couple years ago has appreciated by 30% in the past year. Very strange.
 
JHenry said:
Archiver's comment is spot on. I've seen the same behavior in Beijing, Auckland, Europe and the States. In fact, as I mentioned in the other thread, I've known Chinese who will only buy Louis Vuitton or Prada (or similar) outside of China. That way when asked, they can say "Yes it is (insert brand), and I got it in Europe." This automatically indicates to the listener that the good is real, and expensive.
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Made lots of money on cheap knock-offs. Love the irony.
 
We have a few Chinese members, and they do beautiful work with their Leica. Keith's Leica M8 ended up in China.

http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96737

What a great place for it.

As far as driving up prices on Leica's, I believe the M8 and M9 are more responsible for it.

Now- I may be personally responsible for driving up the prices of Jupiter-3's.
 
It's just that I can only really see the M9 pushing in sales over in the Mainland. Vastly wealthy look for the newest and best. Had one my my local friends from HK ask me the other day which Leica is cooler and newer between the M8 or M9.. Odd. Other than that, the up in buying on the older, vintage Leicas are probably subtle collectors and that could be anyone from any country, really.
 
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