How to increase sharpness but minimize the grain in photos (Hp5+ in D-76)

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wooiloon

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Newbie questions:
I used standard protocol to develop Hp5+ in D-76 (1+1), 13min developing time at 20C, 10 sec agitation in every min. Scanned with Epson V300 without grain remover or sharpness applied. Photo was taken with 50mm Summicron at f/2.

Attached are 2 photos, the first one was original scan without sharpness, and the grain is acceptable, but lacks of sharpness. When I increased the sharpness in PS, grain is too visible, which I dont quite like.

So, the question are, what can I do using the same developer and film to increase sharpness but with low grain effect? Will decrease agitation helps when I do it 1+3 dilution? Or I should use smaller aperture of Summicron to get the sharpness?

5789739916_16e6b2aa7e_z.jpg

Original scan

5789186299_a2bfde063b_z.jpg

Test image after sharpness applied in PS.

Many thanks.

Regards,
WL
 
Do not worry about the Summicron 2,0/50mm It has already a sharp preformance full open but .... of course less D.O.F. at F=2,0.
HP5+ in 35mm is already pretty grainy. For portrait in 35mm I would suggest FP4+, Fomapan 100, Efke 100, Rollei RPX 100, Rollei Retro 80S just to mention regular, cubical type iso 100 films.
HP5+ D76 1+3 will only improve the sharpness a little bit. Alternative Xtol 1+1 - 1+3 will give finer grain, box speed and reasonable sharpness. If you want much less grain: Perceptol 1+1 or CG-512/RLS 1+4 used as Ultra Fine Grain developer but then your speed is around iso 200.

If you want no grain I can advise even an iso 25 film, Efke 25, Rollei Pan 25.
Here an example of Rollei Pan 25 in AM50, a non-staining Pyrocatechine developer of Amaloco: Very sharp, Summicron 2,0/50mm on the M7. By the end of the day shot at 1/60S almost wide open.

205627285_d513bda112.jpg



Rollei Pan 25 @ E.I.25 in AM50 1+29 5:00Min. Simmular results you can get with Tetenal Neofin Blau/Blue, Beutler A+B or FX-1. In combination with these developers you can get a speed enhancing of 0,5F - max. 1F stop.
 
You can also try scanning at a lower resolution. This often retains the image sharpness, but reduces the visibility of the grain.
 
From the examples shown, I can conclude that grain is minimized by using slower film, grain reducing developer to shoot a pretty girl. Increase grain by using 400 speed film, developed in diluted D76, and shooting a baby.

Good to know.

ps, the comparison involved too many variables. I'd suggest that the OP can lessen the grain by shooting with a slower film and keeping all the other parameters the same. Try Delta 100, or Pan-F. I have had excellent results with Delta 100 developed in D76, for both babies and babes.
 
Funny timing. I got in on the Freestyle 2-for-1 deal on HP5+ and used it for the first time last week. Developed in D-76 1+1 and had the same initial reaction as you did :)

I figure it is what it is. Not my cup of tea but then again I typically use TMY. I'll try some of the other developers mentioned. Thanks for the suggestions!
 
Efke 25 is an Orthopan film. Here an example of Efke 25 (E.I. 25) in Beutler A+B 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes (20C). M7 + Summarit 2,5/75mm.

Rollei Pan 25 is also on 100um Polyester base. Clear polyester films you have to load and unload in subdue light. I have with the regular Leica (M7) loading no problem with the "light piping" effect. Since a few years the 35mm Efke films are also on Polyester base. The curling can be more annoying. A good wetting agent and drying not too quick is the best solution for this.


3531595018_f19fb577aa.jpg
 
use a very fine grain film with a normal or slightly pushing developer.
So Delta 100, Acros 100, Tmax 100 and D76 or DDX(which gives a bit more speed).

Also, since you are using HP5 you will find Delta 400 finer grained and again use D76 or DDX developers but with those 100 speed film you wont see any grain but it will be plenty sharp.
 
For the OP... "Sharpening" in Photoshop is a mathematical process that increases perceived sharpness by enhancing edges. Does it for everything including grain, so basically you are limited in using the sharpening tool if there is grain.

I think the solution is to do noise reduction first, which will permit you to sharpen afterwards. I do this on most all scans from film.

You'll do better with more fine grained film, but it's still an issue.

See Bruce Fraser, Real World Image Sharpening with Photoshop CS2. Yes, CS2. It's the best reference and still applies. He has details for working with scans from film.
 
wooiloon said:
Newbie questions:

(...)

So, the question are, what can I do using the same developer and film to increase sharpness but with low grain effect? Will decrease agitation helps when I do it 1+3 dilution? Or I should use smaller aperture of Summicron to get the sharpness?
Click to expand...

I second the one reasonable and helpful answers (besides the PS one right above me) to your question pertaining to HP5+: use Xtol. I don't particularly like Xtol, but this is what you want if you don't want grain. If you're used to the contrast you get with using D-76, Xtol is not for you.

I'd also use Rodinal at a very low concentration; I'm not exactly sure what the ratio and agitation instructions are (you can do a search here in RFF ---oh, that neglected thing called Search), but it's somewhere in the ballpark of 1:100, and you agitate/rotate very very slowly for about 30 or 50 minutes (I think it's 30 if you use 1:50, 50 min if you use 1:100). Then again, I'm not sure, and with Rodinal it's best not to fudge the concentration and dev times.

Another one is: do not let your film experience harsh temperature and humidity changes. Meaning: if it's cold, don't let it get (even mildly) hot right away, and viceversa. Also, if you're developing your own film, keep all your chemicals and your rinse at the same temperature. Although I don't see evidence of reticulation, I do see some grain that I have seen in my own film which is either past its expiration date (and not properly stored) or has been left in a place where it was hot for an extended period of time.
 
Thanks for all the replies and info.
Can I conclude that, nothing more I can improve the sharpness and reduce more the grainy effect if I stick to Hp5+ and D-76, am I right? The reason why I chose speed 400 because mostly shot indoor, and have poor light condition, so I have no choice. Just thought that, there might be some other parameter that I can play with.

what sharpening tool are you using in Photoshop
Click to expand...

Just normal USM, 120%, radius=0.3 pixels
 
I use HP5 for it's grain. If you want less grain from HP5 you must use a developer that will give you shorter development times. This will only help so much as the film is grainy period. If you bought a large lot of it you can try also to hold it back. I shoot it at 100 and develop in Tmax Developer 1:4 for 4.5 min.
Better still is to shoot Fuji acros, Delta or Tmax100 as these films are designed to be finer grained.
Embrace the Grain of HP5!! I love the way it looks! High contrast or low.
5687696674_cd549aab92_z.jpg
 
part of your problem is the scanning which always softens the image and getting that back with USM exagerates grain.

There are tools to only sharpen edges which means the skin tones won't get sharpened so your post processing should be able to deal with it to a point providing the scan isn't too soft.
 
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I have only shot and developed HP5 once, in D76. I was disappointed was well. I don't know if it was the amount of grain, but more the quality of the grain. I always assume it was my error that produced the results, but maybe not. I followed time/temp off the Ilford website. Maybe altering the agitation method?
 
tlitody said:
part of your problem is the scanning which always softens the image and getting that back with USM exagerates grain.

There are tools to only sharpen edges which means the skin tones won't get sharpened so your post processing should be able to deal with it to a point providing the scan isn't too soft.
Click to expand...

Will try to read on film scan work flow to fine tune the output, what a shame, I dont have enlarger at home or nearby my area, I would love wet printing rather than digitized photo :bang:
 
IMO all Tgrain type films (Tmax, Delta, Acros) are often too sharp for portraits so in that way I would avoid them for this purpose.

Well I can hardly believe that with a 2,0 lens you can not shoot an iso 100 film indoor, because the Leica M allows you much slower shutter speeds. 1/30S should not be any problem.

But you can also go to an iso 200 film: Fomapan Creative 200. You can shoot this film on iso 160 with Xtol/Fomadon Excel W27 1+1.

Here an example of this combination:
http://gallery.fotohuisrovo.nl/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=0
 
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