hipsterdufus
Photographer?
The threads about Kodak slide film being discontinued got me thinking...
So, with color film slowly being reduced/fazed out by some manufacturers, many in the film-shooting community have slowly been coming to terms with the idea that our film cameras will be shooting mostly black and white (if we aren't already). I know that I'm already using significantly less C-41 film, since there's no reliable, reasonably-priced film service in my area.
The solution for many film shooters has been to buy a digital camera for their color work. And here is where my original question comes in. Given that there is only one full-frame digital body for our Leica lenses (and no real alternative in the future), what future do our Leica lenses have? Yes, we can use them on crop factor cameras. But that comes with many compromises (look at wide angles on the Nex 7). Not to mention the crop factor itself. I really dislike switching perspectives on the same lens between my film camera and my digital camera (Samsung NX10) and I know that many feel the same way.
Since it's fairly well-accepted that no full-frame mirrorless will be coming any time soon and the M9 is out of many peoples' reach, what sort of future do our lenses hold for those that aren't willing to compromise? I have a boat-load of great M42 lenses that I could use on a classic Canon 5d, which is around $800 these days. I find it sad that there is no digital equivalent for Leica lenses.
So, back to my original question. For those that want to shoot full-frame color (and can't afford the M9), how much life do our Leica lenses have?
So, with color film slowly being reduced/fazed out by some manufacturers, many in the film-shooting community have slowly been coming to terms with the idea that our film cameras will be shooting mostly black and white (if we aren't already). I know that I'm already using significantly less C-41 film, since there's no reliable, reasonably-priced film service in my area.
The solution for many film shooters has been to buy a digital camera for their color work. And here is where my original question comes in. Given that there is only one full-frame digital body for our Leica lenses (and no real alternative in the future), what future do our Leica lenses have? Yes, we can use them on crop factor cameras. But that comes with many compromises (look at wide angles on the Nex 7). Not to mention the crop factor itself. I really dislike switching perspectives on the same lens between my film camera and my digital camera (Samsung NX10) and I know that many feel the same way.
Since it's fairly well-accepted that no full-frame mirrorless will be coming any time soon and the M9 is out of many peoples' reach, what sort of future do our lenses hold for those that aren't willing to compromise? I have a boat-load of great M42 lenses that I could use on a classic Canon 5d, which is around $800 these days. I find it sad that there is no digital equivalent for Leica lenses.
So, back to my original question. For those that want to shoot full-frame color (and can't afford the M9), how much life do our Leica lenses have?
uinku
Established
I don't see C-41 being discontinued before an alternate FF comes to the market, and even if the former does happen, the Leica lense market isn't going to collapse (save for a greater economic reason). The allure of Leica glass is out there. Sure, some might not like the crop factor, but there are dozens of others who don't mind.
Teuthida
Well-known
Mr Dobbs,
I wouldnt worry. If you can afford the lenses, you can afford the M9.
I wouldnt worry. If you can afford the lenses, you can afford the M9.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Well, it will only be a temporal gap - FF EVIL cameras won't be more than ten years away, someone among the current makers will inevitably have to find a new niche, as they can't all succeed at once.
And from the other end, it is rather unlikely that all and every colour film vanishes within the next decade. Even if if both Kodak and Fuji call it quits, at least Gevaert and Filmotec can still coat colour and the new distributors of post-digital film that have evolved in the last few years won't let that opportunity pass.
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
Not sure I'd entirely agree with that. My total lens investment for my M3 is less than $1000 dollars. I've gone with the "value" Leica lenses: Nikkor H-C 50mm f2.0, Leica Summitar 50mm f2.0, Acall 35mm f3.5, Jupiter 12 35mm f2.8, and Elmar 90mm f4.0.
If you are not willing to buy the M9, then you have to accept compromises. There are so many good cameras on the market and many more will come. I'd consider yourself lucky to have so many choices all at one time, from the past and the present. It's a good time to be a photographer IMO. As far as Leica lenses being a dead end... Leica (and even Zeiss and some CV) cannot make enough M mount lenses to keep up with demand. What a dead end that is!
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
None of these will suffer (other than in equivalent focal length) by being used on a crop camera.
Eric T
Well-known
You're right. Leica lenses are dead. Time for the prices to come down!
I think full frame is over-rated.
I think full frame is over-rated.
jarski
Veteran
Am sure M9 alternative will see sunlight before major films go to history.
Steve M.
Veteran
For me, I think Leica lenses are a dead end, but not for reasons of digital. They're just so good that I don't want to shoot anything else. For us film shooters, this is a good time to be shooting too. Lens prices are high, but w/ all the new adapters, you can try lenses on cameras you never dreamed of before.
santela
Established
For me the single best thing about full frame is the lack of crop-factors, so my 35 can stay a 35.
That's it.
That's it.
jpfisher
Well-known
C-41 and B&W film are going to be around for some time--certainly long enough to tide you over to where the M9 becomes affordable on the used market. The M10 will come eventually.
Mirrorless cameras actually make it easier for most people to use Leica glass--I think the prices for used lenses tells us that there is more demand now for the existing supply. For under $1000 you can get a NEX-5N with the eye-level finder--a camera which does just fine with wide-angles. I've shot it with the CV 15mm and been happy with the results. Sure, there's the crop factor--but for one seventh the price of an M9, I can live with my 35mm being a normal lens.
Someone will eventually make a camera like the NEX or Ricoh M-mount module with a 24 x 36mm digital sensor. It may be a few years away, but it'll happen.
Mirrorless cameras actually make it easier for most people to use Leica glass--I think the prices for used lenses tells us that there is more demand now for the existing supply. For under $1000 you can get a NEX-5N with the eye-level finder--a camera which does just fine with wide-angles. I've shot it with the CV 15mm and been happy with the results. Sure, there's the crop factor--but for one seventh the price of an M9, I can live with my 35mm being a normal lens.
Someone will eventually make a camera like the NEX or Ricoh M-mount module with a 24 x 36mm digital sensor. It may be a few years away, but it'll happen.
Eric T
Well-known
Look at this review of the Olympus EM-5: http://robinwong.blogspot.com/.
After reading that and viewing the images, can anyone really say that full-frame is needed or even important? Once upon a time, a full frame sensor was thought to be necessary for noise reduction. Crop factor? So what? Put on the lens you need for a given image.
I really think that full frame is becoming obsolete very quickly. There is no need to carry around those heavy bodies and lenses any longer.
After reading that and viewing the images, can anyone really say that full-frame is needed or even important? Once upon a time, a full frame sensor was thought to be necessary for noise reduction. Crop factor? So what? Put on the lens you need for a given image.
I really think that full frame is becoming obsolete very quickly. There is no need to carry around those heavy bodies and lenses any longer.
MCTuomey
Veteran
If I had your lenses, and I could scratch funds together for a digital M, I'd shoot 'em to distraction on an M8/9. And if an M8/9 wasn't in the cards, I'd look at the alternatives. I'd work with them because those lenses are what's available, and they served well on film. I'd get used to the crop factor. I'd learn to deal with the little things. I'd just shoot, see what I could make, and not think too hard about gear details.
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
I disagree with that, that's like cities who say "Well if you can afford that house you can afford to pay us thousands of dollars more in city taxes"
Odds are you can just barely afford that lens, you've been saving for it for months, you've sold a kidney, maybe two. Well, at least that's how I did it, I sure as hell can't afford an M9
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Just buy Fuji Velvia and Provia when you want E6. Less competition from Kodak means Fuji will be around, and we can use our Leica lenses to make all the color pictures we want. If Fuji stops making it, someone in Croatia or China will take it over. The sky isn't falling.
Tim Gray
Well-known
A couple things:
1) I think color film will be around for a bit. Maybe not as long as I'd like, but I suspect (and hope) longer than a year or two.
2) At some point, some non-Leica camera maker will come out with a full frame M-mount digital camera. It might take a couple years. But the growth of non-DSLR camera varieties leads me to think that digital technology is getting mature enough to start spawning some alternative form factors. We've already seen a couple of M-mount crop digital cameras...
3) Hopefully color film lasts long enough for point 2 to come true, and we have a chance to transition.
4) You can always pick up a used M8. I know it has it's problems, but it is an option.
That being said, I know what you mean. It sounds like I have a bit more in my Leica gear than you do, and while I *technically* could afford an M9, it would be a stretch, and I don't personally think the camera offers enough for it's price. As it stands now, if my camera gear were stolen, I could not afford to replace it on my own in less than a couple years, particularly at Leica's new prices. I'm pretty confident there will eventually be a solution for us, but the question in my mind is am I willing to wait long enough for it to appear. I might jump ship long before then. And might find myself perfectly happy.
1) I think color film will be around for a bit. Maybe not as long as I'd like, but I suspect (and hope) longer than a year or two.
2) At some point, some non-Leica camera maker will come out with a full frame M-mount digital camera. It might take a couple years. But the growth of non-DSLR camera varieties leads me to think that digital technology is getting mature enough to start spawning some alternative form factors. We've already seen a couple of M-mount crop digital cameras...
3) Hopefully color film lasts long enough for point 2 to come true, and we have a chance to transition.
4) You can always pick up a used M8. I know it has it's problems, but it is an option.
That being said, I know what you mean. It sounds like I have a bit more in my Leica gear than you do, and while I *technically* could afford an M9, it would be a stretch, and I don't personally think the camera offers enough for it's price. As it stands now, if my camera gear were stolen, I could not afford to replace it on my own in less than a couple years, particularly at Leica's new prices. I'm pretty confident there will eventually be a solution for us, but the question in my mind is am I willing to wait long enough for it to appear. I might jump ship long before then. And might find myself perfectly happy.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I'm sure someone has made this joke before, but you can send me all of yours at $50 a piece. I'll find a home for the poor orphans.
I don't know who is doing the "rating" of full frame cameras so that they can be "overrated." Here is what I like about them: wide selection of lenses and, importantly, wide selection of wide angle lenses. Awww, forget it. Send me your full frame cameras too and I'll do what I can.
Ben Marks
(in jest)
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
In addition: we keep seeing digi-platforms that can be adapted to M lenses:
We now have the RD-1 (which price has been stable for years, used copies are currently selling for essentially $100 less than what I sold mine four years ago); M8, M9, m4/3, Sony Nex, Ricoh digital, soon to come Fuji X1 Pro -- seems like the number of competing systems to accommodate M lenses is growing, not shrinking. This does not argue for a "dead end" design, it argues for a niche market, but one that has attracted many players with diverse technologies. This suggests the opposite of "dead end," no? I think there was a stronger argument (although still a losing one) one year before the R-D1 came out, when Leica was saying "can't be done" and the digital revolution was in full cry.
[Edit: Ahem. Full disclosure: the amount of money I have tied up in Leica glass could feed a pack of teenagers through a year or more, so in addition to my argument above, let me add my fervent hope that it is not so.]
We now have the RD-1 (which price has been stable for years, used copies are currently selling for essentially $100 less than what I sold mine four years ago); M8, M9, m4/3, Sony Nex, Ricoh digital, soon to come Fuji X1 Pro -- seems like the number of competing systems to accommodate M lenses is growing, not shrinking. This does not argue for a "dead end" design, it argues for a niche market, but one that has attracted many players with diverse technologies. This suggests the opposite of "dead end," no? I think there was a stronger argument (although still a losing one) one year before the R-D1 came out, when Leica was saying "can't be done" and the digital revolution was in full cry.
[Edit: Ahem. Full disclosure: the amount of money I have tied up in Leica glass could feed a pack of teenagers through a year or more, so in addition to my argument above, let me add my fervent hope that it is not so.]
bfffer
Established
I don't think its a dead end.
5 years ago leica lens was an the lowest price.
no one ever thought there would be a way to use leica lens digitally.
now within 3 years we have all those M4/3, apsc, M8, M9 cameras.
even kyocera is coming back to make cameras. (A contax digital G?)
maybe they will even release a sensor based AF camera for M mount.
Right now I would only worried about film future.
5 years ago leica lens was an the lowest price.
no one ever thought there would be a way to use leica lens digitally.
now within 3 years we have all those M4/3, apsc, M8, M9 cameras.
even kyocera is coming back to make cameras. (A contax digital G?)
maybe they will even release a sensor based AF camera for M mount.
Right now I would only worried about film future.