Agitation with Xtol

[Lauffray]

It seems that the majority of questions I ask on RFF are push dev related but here goes 😛
I've recently switched to Xtol for push processing my TriX@1600 and I'm wondering, since it's a speed increasing developer, whether it makes sense for me to reduce agitation times. I've tried dev for 16.5min with 3 very gentle inversions every 90sec, the result is ok to my taste.
I could use a bit more contrast, wouldn't mind the grain and 16.5min is definitely too long. I haven't done this with Xtol yet but with Rodinal, standard one minute inversion frequencies gave me very dark and contrasted negatives, would this happen with Xtol or is it purely an exposure question ?

thanks guys !

 

[haempe]

Agitation and Xtol is a little bit different.
Xtol needs much Agitation. No need to be gentle.
Correct agitation is nearly shaking (10 overturns in 5 sec per 30 sec).

 

[Lauffray]

Thanks haempe, and that with the standard times on massive dev chart ?

 

[Turtle]

OK, I sometimes push TriX in Xtol so might be able to help:

Why are you saying 16.5 mins is 'defintely too long'?

If you agitate every 60 secs instead of 90 secs, you will either need to reduce the development time a little (maybe 5%) or will get slightly more contrast and density to your negatives. If this is what you think you need, you should find the difference between 60 and 90secs minimal.

In short, no, Xtol is not like Rodinal when it comes to agitation. Rodinal is much more sensitive to changes than Xtol.

FWIW, I often used minimal agitation with pushed TriX in Xtol 1+2 to gain speed while keeping highlights in check. It works and I have been able to get considerable improvements in shadow detail by doing so. TriX is quite friendly with this technique, but films like Delta 100 are most definitely not and one tends to get drag marks and other nasty effects.

Are you using Xtol stock, or diluted?

 

[Turtle]

To be fair that is Kodak's idea of agitation, but other forms can be used successfully and are equally correct if they give the results you are aiming for.

I use 4 inversions every 60 secs as my default for all devs and it works just fine with Xtol.

Agitation and Xtol is a little bit different.
Xtol needs much Agitation. No need to be gentle.
Correct agitation is nearly shaking (10 overturns in 5 sec per 30 sec).

 

[Lauffray]

Turtle: I think 16.5 is too long because the time on massive dev is 13.5, besides with fixing, washing etc, it takes just under 25 minutes total per roll, too long !
I'm using Xtol at 1+1 right now. Yes ideally I want to avoid the harsh highlights I got with Rodinal that's why I reduced agitation frequency, but you're saying between 60 and 90sec there isn't that much difference?

 

[MikeL]

I normally use Xtol at 1+1, but when pushing to 2000, I follow Honus' recipe of Xtol stock, 10.5 minutes, normal agitation, at 68 degrees F. I've been pretty happy with the negatives.

 

[Turtle]

Yes, the difference between 60 and 90 second agitation will be visible on film, but no, it will not be 'great.'

Ignore what the massive development chart says. What works for you is all that matters. My times are all over the place compared to reference sites, but they are the best times for me in the darkroom (and my printer says they are just right for him too)!

Increasing agitation to every 30s, from 90s, will have a significant impact and reduce development times further. I would suggest trying this with Xtol 1+1 before changing dilution. From 16.5 mins, you might try 15 with agitation at 30s.

Note that Xtol 1+1 gives approx 1/3 stop more speed than 1+0 stock. I am not a fan of concentrated developers and short times for pushing because the result is thin shadows and hot highlights. Thats fine if that is the look you are after, but I tend to want negs that more normal. High concentrations are recommended to keep times shorter and redue base fog, but it does not mean they results in the best push from a pictorial perspective.

Unless I am shooting a scene with smooth tones, sky etc, but far the best push from TriX is semi stand development. This is easily accomplished with Xtol 1+2. The real speed of this film hits about 1000-1250 developed like this (about the same as D3200 developed with normal agitation) and you get FAR more shadow detail than using regular push techniques. So it takes a while, but requires little effort 🙂

TriX has a very stable latent image, so you can group film together and develop several films together so you feel you 25 mins is more productive. I sometimes use 5 and 8 reel tanks.

With Xtol, always ensure there is 100ml stock solution for every roll of film, regardless of dilution or total volume i.e.

@ 1+2, to do 5 films, you would need 500ml stock +2 parts water (1000ml) = 1500ml total solution.

Xtol is amazing stuff. You can even mix it with small amounts of Rodinal to get a little more bite to your negs with certain films. I often do this with 6x7 Delta 100, Neopan 400 etc.

 

[Lauffray]

Thanks Turtle ! excellent stuff.
I like the idea of mixing Rodinal, to what concentrations do you add it to Xtol ?

 

[MikeL]

Old thread might have some info:

Rodinal with Xtol

 

[Lauffray]

Thanks Mikel, great stuff there too.
A question to all of you though, I'm surprised that increasing the agitation from 90 to 30sec will only shave a 90sec off the dev time, is this right ?
I will definitely follow Turtle's advice and ignore the massive dev chart times, but every time I've used their times, with standard agitation, my negs came out too dark...I'm missing something :S

 

[seblock]

Since ive been experimenting a lot with xtol lately, i definitely can confirm that the devchart times are not correct. Well, say for me at least. Using about EI 1600 with trix, i develop for 14 minutes, 15 might be ok too. pushing it even more i find i little bit tricky. I shot two rolls trix +3 at a party and used the devchart times. negative turned out very bad and underdeveloped. Normally when doing night shots or shots at low light, i use the trix at about EI 2400 an develop for 18 minutes which turn out quite ok (for me, of course). Using 3200 again, i would try something around 25 minutes or even longer.

Also i started using the original xtol agitation method (3-5 times every 30sec, depending on how much contrast is needed/wanted) and definitely noticed a difference (i used to use normal, slow agitation, 3 times every minute). I must say it really costed quite an effort to really agitate more powerful und very quickly. but the results are really good, in terms of tones, contrast an grain.

I also did a lot of researching whether mixing rodinal with xtol might be a goog idea, say for increasing grain and contrast. some say it does make difference, others say the rodinal doesnt deal very good with the xtol for some substances between these two do not get along well. i sure will give it a try anyway, but for now, agitating very strongly 3/30s works very well for me.

greetings
seb

 

[Tim Gray]

I pretty much develop my film (mostly Kodak film) according to the times and temps in the XTOL pdf. 5 inversions every 30 seconds, not gentle inversions either. Stuff prints find on grade 2-3 and scans fine as well. All of the B&W in my flickr stream with a couple old exceptions are in XTOL 1:1 with the above agitation scheme.

 

[Turtle]

I am glad things are working better for you!

Regarding Xtol and rodinal, ignore those who are speculating (without trying) that this combo does not work, because they are wrong. I have used this combination extensively and there is no doubt whatsoever that it not only works, but that it works very well, very reliably and produces images of a character somewhere between the two developers: more grain sparkle, crispness and better acutance, but more grain (thanks to Rodinal) but good speed, still fine grain and manageable highlights (Xtol).

It works so reliably, I have used Xtol 1+3 as my base with different films and add Xtol either on a 1+100 or 1+200 basis. At 1+200 the result is subtle, but still noticeable. it works absolutely brilliantly with Foma 100 and Delta 100, but especially the former.

I also did a lot of researching whether mixing rodinal with xtol might be a goog idea, say for increasing grain and contrast. some say it does make difference, others say the rodinal doesnt deal very good with the xtol for some substances between these two do not get along well. i sure will give it a try anyway, but for now, agitating very strongly 3/30s works very well for me.

greetings
seb

 

[seblock]

I am glad things are working better for you!

Regarding Xtol and rodinal, ignore those who are speculating (without trying) that this combo does not work, because they are wrong. I have used this combination extensively and there is no doubt whatsoever that it not only works, but that it works very well, very reliably and produces images of a character somewhere between the two developers: more grain sparkle, crispness and better acutance, but more grain (thanks to Rodinal) but good speed, still fine grain and manageable highlights (Xtol).

It works so reliably, I have used Xtol 1+3 as my base with different films and add Xtol either on a 1+100 or 1+200 basis. At 1+200 the result is subtle, but still noticeable. it works absolutely brilliantly with Foma 100 and Delta 100, but especially the former.

Im glad to hear that! I think ill try a 1+100 mix soon. Thanks a lot!