Joakim Målare
Established
Is the world "in reality" actually curvilinear...
... or rectilinear, as we have learned to see it through images?
I can't find proof of either version. I was never a big fan of logic, and perspective theory works... in theory...
Just think about the eyesight of some other animals - there are species that can see almost 180 degrees with each eye. What sort of view of the world do they have in their heads?
I get the feeling everything is seen from inside a bubble, and moving around makes me kind of seasick after thinking about this for a while.
What do you think - are distortion corrected wide-angles overrated?
/ Joakim
Note: The photo is by "Ashley Pomeroy" via Wikipedia (Creative Commons)
Note 2: Someone should really take a look at the info on perspective on Wikipedia. It seems copy/pasted from a book, referencing images that aren't there. It makes no sense.
Note 3: Sorry for being a little off-topic. I take no offense if someone should decide to delete this.
... or rectilinear, as we have learned to see it through images?
I can't find proof of either version. I was never a big fan of logic, and perspective theory works... in theory...
Just think about the eyesight of some other animals - there are species that can see almost 180 degrees with each eye. What sort of view of the world do they have in their heads?
I get the feeling everything is seen from inside a bubble, and moving around makes me kind of seasick after thinking about this for a while.
What do you think - are distortion corrected wide-angles overrated?
/ Joakim
Note: The photo is by "Ashley Pomeroy" via Wikipedia (Creative Commons)
Note 2: Someone should really take a look at the info on perspective on Wikipedia. It seems copy/pasted from a book, referencing images that aren't there. It makes no sense.
Note 3: Sorry for being a little off-topic. I take no offense if someone should decide to delete this.
Sparrow
Veteran
Well, we see in Euclidean projection, we perceive in Planner projection and we create art somewhere in between ...
PS this looks correct, it's "art" however it conforms to neither projection ... oh, and no as an artist I don't obsess about equipment
PS this looks correct, it's "art" however it conforms to neither projection ... oh, and no as an artist I don't obsess about equipment
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
Well, earth is round, horizon is curved and verticals converge at the center of the earth.
finguanzo
Well-known
I have no clue, but I loved the title of this thread. It could be used for most of the threads on this forum... LOL
filmfan
Well-known
All I know is I prefer to look at the rectilinear version of the photo.
Hatch
Established
Well, the world is what it is.
Only our perception is different.
Mathematically speaking a straight line is a straight line, and if my brain sees it as a straight line.......:bang:
Only our perception is different.
Mathematically speaking a straight line is a straight line, and if my brain sees it as a straight line.......:bang:
neelin
Established
That is debatable
Indeed...now how does a sightless person resolve the space around him...recti...curvi or ....
Didn't recti/curvi representations in art appear only as early as the mid second millenium?
Is that discomfort my head starting to hurt :bang:
robert
robklurfield
eclipse
There is plenty of "rectal-linear" conversation in many of the gear-oriented threads on RFF. [Anal retentives unite!]
Sparrow
Veteran
That is debatable
Indeed...now how does a sightless person resolve the space around him...recti...curvi or ....
Didn't recti/curvi representations in art appear only as early as the mid second millenium?
Is that discomfort my head starting to hurt
robert
Yep, very debatable ...
There are reports of "perspective" paintings used as theatre backdrops in Greece that date back to classical times, may be 500BC and actual frescos still survive of Roman illusionistic or architectural stuff from the start of the first millennium
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
It's like the old story that, when Captain Cook showed drawings to the natives of the south Pacific, they couldn't make sense of what they were seeing, because they lacked the cultural background to "see" the representation. I don't know if I believe that story or not. It was in my primary school history book, during the 'fifties, and most of the history I was taught has turned out to be questionable.
The story does point up the importance of cultural context when we view an image.
Being a cultural mongrel, I use both fisheyes and rectilinear ultrawides as and when I wish.
The story does point up the importance of cultural context when we view an image.
Being a cultural mongrel, I use both fisheyes and rectilinear ultrawides as and when I wish.
Peter_wrote:
Well-known
depends on my level of alcohol...
but i think, in fact our perception tends to be more curvilinear...
i heard a similar story in school too. in my case with china. that they were confused that there were tall and mini-people in one picture... while in traditional chinese painting, there was no perspectively decrease in size.
i think, even in europe this is quite a modern concept. since renaissance...
but i think, in fact our perception tends to be more curvilinear...
i heard a similar story in school too. in my case with china. that they were confused that there were tall and mini-people in one picture... while in traditional chinese painting, there was no perspectively decrease in size.
i think, even in europe this is quite a modern concept. since renaissance...
Peter_wrote:
Well-known
this thread reminds me on that picture...
from the book Analyse der Empfindungen (The Analysis of Sensations) from the physicist and philospher Ernst Mach
from the book Analyse der Empfindungen (The Analysis of Sensations) from the physicist and philospher Ernst Mach
Sparrow
Veteran
Peter_wrote:
Well-known
look at the pillars at the left side. they have all the same size. no matter if they are in the front or in the backdrop.
i didnt meant perspective painting in general, but decrease of size.
i mean something like this:
so perspective projection instead of parallel projection.
i have no deeper knowledge about history of art. but i don't think, that there was this kind of painting in the middle age for example. it's of course part of the renaissance, that they rediscovered things from ancient roman and greek culture.
compare it with this quote fom the article about brunelleschi on wikipedia:
"Invention of linear perspective
Brunelleschi is famous for two panel paintings illustrating geometric optical linear perspective made in the early 1400s. His biographer, Antonio Manetti, described this famous experiment in which Brunelleschi painted two panels: the first of the Florentine Baptistery as viewed frontally from the western portal of the unfinished cathedral, and second the Palazzo Vecchio as seen obliquely from its northwest corner. These were not, however, the first paintings with accurate linear perspective, which may be attributed to Ambrogio Lorenzetti (Annunciation, 1344 File:Lorenzetti Ambrogio annunciation- 1344..jpg).
The first Baptistery panel was constructed with a hole drilled through the centric vanishing point. Curiously, Brunelleschi intended that it only be observed by the viewer holding the unpainted back of the picture against his/her eye with one hand, and a mirror in the other hand facing and reflecting the painted side. In other words, Brunelleschi wanted his new perspective "realism" to be tested not by comparing the painted image to the actual Baptistery but to its reflection in a mirror according to the Euclidean laws of geometric optics. This feat showed artists vividly how they might paint their images, not merely as flat two-dimensional shapes, but looking more like three-dimensional structures just as mirrors reflect them. Unfortunately, both panels have since been lost.[12]
Around this time, linear perspective as a novel artistic tool spread not only in Italy but throughout western Europe, and quickly became standard studio practice up to and including present time."
i didnt meant perspective painting in general, but decrease of size.
i mean something like this:
so perspective projection instead of parallel projection.
i have no deeper knowledge about history of art. but i don't think, that there was this kind of painting in the middle age for example. it's of course part of the renaissance, that they rediscovered things from ancient roman and greek culture.
compare it with this quote fom the article about brunelleschi on wikipedia:
"Invention of linear perspective
Brunelleschi is famous for two panel paintings illustrating geometric optical linear perspective made in the early 1400s. His biographer, Antonio Manetti, described this famous experiment in which Brunelleschi painted two panels: the first of the Florentine Baptistery as viewed frontally from the western portal of the unfinished cathedral, and second the Palazzo Vecchio as seen obliquely from its northwest corner. These were not, however, the first paintings with accurate linear perspective, which may be attributed to Ambrogio Lorenzetti (Annunciation, 1344 File:Lorenzetti Ambrogio annunciation- 1344..jpg).
The first Baptistery panel was constructed with a hole drilled through the centric vanishing point. Curiously, Brunelleschi intended that it only be observed by the viewer holding the unpainted back of the picture against his/her eye with one hand, and a mirror in the other hand facing and reflecting the painted side. In other words, Brunelleschi wanted his new perspective "realism" to be tested not by comparing the painted image to the actual Baptistery but to its reflection in a mirror according to the Euclidean laws of geometric optics. This feat showed artists vividly how they might paint their images, not merely as flat two-dimensional shapes, but looking more like three-dimensional structures just as mirrors reflect them. Unfortunately, both panels have since been lost.[12]
Around this time, linear perspective as a novel artistic tool spread not only in Italy but throughout western Europe, and quickly became standard studio practice up to and including present time."
Sparrow
Veteran
folk usually trot out Paolo Uccello as the inventor of modern perspective, but leaving aside the split hairs the Roman artefacts and Greek accounts of theatre sets it seems quite clear to me that ancient people understood their world in a linear way.
Their representation of that world may not be exactly post-renaissance third angle projection and disapearing point we know but they clearly perceived it that way and painted as closely as they could with the tools they had at the time. I believe it's easily possible to go back to 5th century BC and even looking at older stuff I can see some attempt to show linear depth in images ...
Their representation of that world may not be exactly post-renaissance third angle projection and disapearing point we know but they clearly perceived it that way and painted as closely as they could with the tools they had at the time. I believe it's easily possible to go back to 5th century BC and even looking at older stuff I can see some attempt to show linear depth in images ...
Monz
Monz
I don't know what the answer is, but it looks like a Widelux vs X-Pan situation.
Peter_wrote:
Well-known
@stewart ok, you convinced me
Sparrow
Veteran
@stewart ok, you convinced me
It's been a keen interest of mine for many years
... personally I think it's something to do with throwing stones, spears and later shooting arrows ... in brief it's easier to hit a woolly-mammoth with a pointed stick in a rectilinear world than a curvilinear one, so we did