rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Leica pricing has been a hot discussion topic for a while, but with the latest few product releases we seem to have got some particularly emotional and vitriolic discussions, with people displaying deep disappointment and calling it a betrayal of Leica's photographic roots. So here's a few thoughts on the subject - I use Leica as an example here, but I guess one could, mutatis mutandis, have a similar discussion about Alpa or other manufacturers, too.
As far as I can see, Leica has been manufacturing luxury goods for a long time. The first luxury M6 limited editions began appearing in the late 80s, and it became visible with products like the MP and blatantly obvious with the a-la-carte program. It seems to me the M7 was probably the last film M primarily directed at photographers.
Now these luxury goods were always also good photographic tools in the hand of a skilled photographer who happened to have a sufficient income stream. I guess it's because of that, and because price increases were gradual, that buyers could for a long time tell themselves that they were not purchasing a luxury good, but a more or less exquisite photographic tool that happened to come at a price. Some of them still can, disposable income permitting.
My guess is that there will be buyers such as this for the M-M and for the new aspherical Summicron. We'll see a few of them on RFF over a short time, I'm sure. Many of these are quite serious photographers and the fact that they happen to be able to afford expensive gear doesn't make them less so; and while they're probably not the primary target audience, they are indeed necessary as a source of legitimacy for the marketing strategy to work.
However, as prices increased, other people began dropping out of the bottom of the affordability threshold, or they started to question the price premium over generic high-end cameras. At some point Leica, for these people, crossed the red line between high-end photographic tools, which seemed OK to buy if somewhat expensive, and luxury goods, which were seen as in conflict with Leica's background in professional photography. It seems that the release of the 50 Summicron Aspherical at >$7k was a point where this red line was crossed for a large number of people, hence the emotional discussions.
That's why people now get angry, as if Leica was betraying their roots. However, if such a betrayal ever took place, it took place a long time ago. Leica has been a luxury goods manufacturer for more than twenty years and you had to live under a rock not to notice it. That's why I am a bit baffled about the vitriolic threads we got about the pricing of the M9 Monochrom and the new aspherical 50 Summicron. It seems a bit late to complain about this now in 2012 when the change in marketing strategy took place in the 1980s.
As far as I can see, Leica has been manufacturing luxury goods for a long time. The first luxury M6 limited editions began appearing in the late 80s, and it became visible with products like the MP and blatantly obvious with the a-la-carte program. It seems to me the M7 was probably the last film M primarily directed at photographers.
Now these luxury goods were always also good photographic tools in the hand of a skilled photographer who happened to have a sufficient income stream. I guess it's because of that, and because price increases were gradual, that buyers could for a long time tell themselves that they were not purchasing a luxury good, but a more or less exquisite photographic tool that happened to come at a price. Some of them still can, disposable income permitting.
My guess is that there will be buyers such as this for the M-M and for the new aspherical Summicron. We'll see a few of them on RFF over a short time, I'm sure. Many of these are quite serious photographers and the fact that they happen to be able to afford expensive gear doesn't make them less so; and while they're probably not the primary target audience, they are indeed necessary as a source of legitimacy for the marketing strategy to work.
However, as prices increased, other people began dropping out of the bottom of the affordability threshold, or they started to question the price premium over generic high-end cameras. At some point Leica, for these people, crossed the red line between high-end photographic tools, which seemed OK to buy if somewhat expensive, and luxury goods, which were seen as in conflict with Leica's background in professional photography. It seems that the release of the 50 Summicron Aspherical at >$7k was a point where this red line was crossed for a large number of people, hence the emotional discussions.
That's why people now get angry, as if Leica was betraying their roots. However, if such a betrayal ever took place, it took place a long time ago. Leica has been a luxury goods manufacturer for more than twenty years and you had to live under a rock not to notice it. That's why I am a bit baffled about the vitriolic threads we got about the pricing of the M9 Monochrom and the new aspherical 50 Summicron. It seems a bit late to complain about this now in 2012 when the change in marketing strategy took place in the 1980s.
jarski
Veteran
Tom, most camera shops before digi & Internet-era were like that. often it was forbidden even to touch Nikon or Canon SLR's, if you had too cheap clothes, were too young to have the money, or just didn't look right for shop owner. perhaps big city shops somewhere in "West" were different, but definitely not where I was growing up 
braver
Well-known
I think people are comparing current Leica prices to price levels across the field 5 years ago. You must keep in mind that the entire field of top-of-class camera's have become more expensive. The M9 is cheaper than top offerings from Nikon and Canon, whereas Leica has always only offered one M (aside from a short stint with the CL) and it has always been more expensive than the competition. Is the 1Dx also a luxury item for the nouveau-riche or are other brands excused from such suspicion? As for the brand's image I'm not sure the Hermes editions help, but I also fail to see how an M9P in special leather affects my M6. I mean, I don't really like the tiger print limited edition Nikes, but the ones I wear don't change because of that. If anything the income from special editions help ensure Leica will be able to keep offering service and parts for my M6 and sell me lenses 10 years from now.
What I worries me about these online discussions is that almost no one seems to do a reality check and it practically rains generalizations. Real pros don't use X, real artists do Y... Nikons and Canons are claimed to be flawless (ever hear of the 5D mirror issue?). People are angry at the supposed lack of morality of buying a $7000 50/2 lens, but are arguing about it from their comfy chair behind the computer. Of all the things you can do with $7000, buying a lens built in the western world is one of the most harmless. Really, if you think the world needs improving, saying the rich shouldn't buy stuff isn't the way to do it.
Of course, the new cron is amazingly expensive, but the fact Leica is keeping the previous one in production (perhaps indefinitely) should tell you what the new one is: a show piece, the best lens Leica knows how to build. If you get worked up about this one better not tune into Top Gear, you'll explode!
What I worries me about these online discussions is that almost no one seems to do a reality check and it practically rains generalizations. Real pros don't use X, real artists do Y... Nikons and Canons are claimed to be flawless (ever hear of the 5D mirror issue?). People are angry at the supposed lack of morality of buying a $7000 50/2 lens, but are arguing about it from their comfy chair behind the computer. Of all the things you can do with $7000, buying a lens built in the western world is one of the most harmless. Really, if you think the world needs improving, saying the rich shouldn't buy stuff isn't the way to do it.
Of course, the new cron is amazingly expensive, but the fact Leica is keeping the previous one in production (perhaps indefinitely) should tell you what the new one is: a show piece, the best lens Leica knows how to build. If you get worked up about this one better not tune into Top Gear, you'll explode!
mrrobleyleica
Member
There is sort of 2 tier Leica - one for the collectors, fondlers etc, and for the users. This is maybe like other brands, like Hermes etc. I expect some (I'm NOT talking from experience but just read about a very young rich young woman who has 23 handbags that each cost over £6000) buy a scarf to wear and others to collect, who knows. I've never had the collecting mentality or understood it.
Also - I've not really looked hard, but I've not come across the collectors on this forum either(?).
Occasionally you see a post / reply that pours some scorn over Leica products, saying they are exclusive, overrated high end luxury items and not deserving of the reputation and price tag.
I like many find it hard to justify the cost. Luckily I don't have to - my partner is pretty cool about it, lucky me. I've also been lucky with my recent sales and trade ins - in my Bank of Leica accounts currently I'm in credit to the tune of about £450! That's how it works here.
I know people who have bought Leica for many years and enjoy owning them and using them. They appreciate the image quality of the lenses more than anything, and this is the main factor surely why we stick with it. The fact that they can appreciate in value too (if you're lucky) is a bonus.
Also - I've not really looked hard, but I've not come across the collectors on this forum either(?).
Occasionally you see a post / reply that pours some scorn over Leica products, saying they are exclusive, overrated high end luxury items and not deserving of the reputation and price tag.
I like many find it hard to justify the cost. Luckily I don't have to - my partner is pretty cool about it, lucky me. I've also been lucky with my recent sales and trade ins - in my Bank of Leica accounts currently I'm in credit to the tune of about £450! That's how it works here.
I know people who have bought Leica for many years and enjoy owning them and using them. They appreciate the image quality of the lenses more than anything, and this is the main factor surely why we stick with it. The fact that they can appreciate in value too (if you're lucky) is a bonus.
thegman
Veteran
Well, how many of us buying Leica, were buying *new*? I'd expect not many, and that means Leica does not make a dime off us. That means we've no real right to call ourselves their supporters, as we don't support them. Leica does not have a professional market like Canon or Nikon, they don't really have a consumer market like Panasonic or Olympus. They need to survive by making expensive cameras for those prepared to buy them. For all our talk on RFF, we're probably not supporting Leica as much as the rich people who actually purchase their brand new products.
If it were not for the 1%, Leica would probably not exist to in the way they do now.
We don't have a right to buy stuff, I don't have right to buy a Ferrari, as much as I want one, and as much as I can't afford it. That's my problem, not Ferrari's. Same for Leica.
If it were not for the 1%, Leica would probably not exist to in the way they do now.
We don't have a right to buy stuff, I don't have right to buy a Ferrari, as much as I want one, and as much as I can't afford it. That's my problem, not Ferrari's. Same for Leica.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
When I see a lens like the new Summicron or a digital body like the M9-M I shrug and move on ... because I know they're not made for me or people in my income bracket.
There's plenty out there who have the money to spend on these sorts of items and they probably worked damned hard to get that money ... good luck to them, seriously!
There's plenty out there who have the money to spend on these sorts of items and they probably worked damned hard to get that money ... good luck to them, seriously!
maddoc
... likes film again.
I think that Leica Camera AG serves both purposes, producing high-end photographic tools and luxury goods at the same time. A few will use a M9-M / 50/2.0 APO-ASPH combination and push photography to new limits, the wealthy majority will continue taking photos of cats, dogs and boke test-shots
Damaso
Photojournalist
Well put! Leica makes great tools but they have been placed out of the reach of many, if not all working professionals...
mfogiel
Veteran
Given that Leica has gained a luxury goods producer status, It would be stupid on their side not to use it. After all, Mr. Kaufman has invested lots of his own money, took a huge risk on his bet, and has kept the company afloat with whatever means he has had at his disposal when everybody was thinking him nuts. Result ? Leica, far from filing for bankruptcy, has managed another comeback, we can still buy their products, service the old ones at the factory, and the people dependent on Leica for survival, namely the employees, can enjoy their jobs and look ahead to the future, not a small thing in these uncertain times.
The myth surrounding a luxury brand needs to feed on more than just history. Customers need to be reminded, that the brand is focused in an uncompromising way on delivering the most beautiful, advanced, reliable, durable, innovative, you name it, products. The new 50 Summicron ASPH will undoubtedly uphold Leica's image as top dog in lens manufacture, and if it will also make a useful tool for few professionals and will embellish the cameras of wealthy afficionados, then be it. I hope the profit from it's manufacturing will help Leica build its capacity to innovate and stay ahead of the game for many years to come, so that I will have a competent service assured for all my film M's... As to the 50 Summicron ASPH, it is like the Ferraris I see passing by here every day - it will be enjoyed by few, but it will also make possible the production of Summarits, like the Ferraris make possible the production of Fiat 500's... Let's get over it... long live Leica !
The myth surrounding a luxury brand needs to feed on more than just history. Customers need to be reminded, that the brand is focused in an uncompromising way on delivering the most beautiful, advanced, reliable, durable, innovative, you name it, products. The new 50 Summicron ASPH will undoubtedly uphold Leica's image as top dog in lens manufacture, and if it will also make a useful tool for few professionals and will embellish the cameras of wealthy afficionados, then be it. I hope the profit from it's manufacturing will help Leica build its capacity to innovate and stay ahead of the game for many years to come, so that I will have a competent service assured for all my film M's... As to the 50 Summicron ASPH, it is like the Ferraris I see passing by here every day - it will be enjoyed by few, but it will also make possible the production of Summarits, like the Ferraris make possible the production of Fiat 500's... Let's get over it... long live Leica !
haempe
Well-known
True.
But need the "working professional" such great tools?
Which client would note the difference?
NeeZee
Well-known
I think Leica lost it when they started the M series (or the IIIg).
... says the IIIf user
Seriously though, i think the emotional reactions just show that people want to own that new stuff but can't afford it and the reason they want to own it is that (even though wouldn't admit it) their focus is not on photography but on collectiong fancy equipment. nothing wrong with that, just saying.
... says the IIIf user
Seriously though, i think the emotional reactions just show that people want to own that new stuff but can't afford it and the reason they want to own it is that (even though wouldn't admit it) their focus is not on photography but on collectiong fancy equipment. nothing wrong with that, just saying.
robert blu
quiet photographer
+1 ! I think we are living in a world where, specially since a few years there are and there will be more very reach people with the majority becoming daily "less rich". From a marketing point of view the first segment, the very rich is where Leica is aiming. For them the actual prices are not a problem. Leica is not producing high quantities and they try to get the maximum profit where they can (thinking of the new rich in Asia, Russia, Brasil...).
Leica gear has always been very expensive and it is now. The problems are two: one is the majority of people is becoming less rich, second in the past it was possible to "invest" in a system and be relatively sure to keep the value if reselling it (more or less) but now in the digital era you are not so sure what will be out in a couple of years.
Next question IMHO is if the high quality of these files, I'm thinking now about the monochrome M, when printed by a "normal" printer can still be seen? In other words the strength of the chain is the one of the weakest piece therefore if the affordable printing quality is not so high as the capturing quality the result will not justify a very high end camera.
robert
PS: hope my english is good enough to explain my point of view, which of course could be wrong!
raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
It's been awhile for me: my last *new* Leica rangefinder purchase was in 1985 when I bought an M6 Classic and 35mm Summicron. Shortly thereafter, added a new 90mm thin Tele-Elmarit 2.8 purchased from all places, Lechmere (a now defunct New England/New York retailer). Since then, I added a used 135mm f/4 Tele-Elmar. Since I'm not a pro, that kit suits my purpose just well and I still have it and enjoy it.
Nothing new since then has really caught my fancy. As a matter of fact, it's their older products and accessories that really turn me on and have since acquired: a IIIf w/Summitar; M2 w/f2.8 Summaron; various hoods, shades, auxiliary viewfinders etc... I tend to buy used Leica equipment in mint/like new condition so I feel I really am buying something *slightly* new
My only other *new* Leica purchases were non-RF - those being: a Pradovit slide film projector, the original AF-C1 40/80mm point-n-shoot film camera, Leica 5x Loupe, 10x25 BCA, and 8x42 BC Trinovid binos @1990's prices
. Leica binos are outstanding to look through BTW in case you were not in the mood to take photos. 
BobYIL
Well-known
But I loved this!!! Such accomplishments are inspiring for photography! We do not need to deal with regular and ordinary products in future too, as they can not help us to develop our talents as much as the special versions can.
I know Leica will introduce the new M10 in Photokina, September this year. But I expect more.. Let me share what I have predicted after seeing this Hermes version:
Following the M10 this year Leica may introduce two new models more as well as some other “Essentials” to satisfy different cost expectations.
- M10-M with Monochromatic sensor and HD-video. Virgin Black Snakeskin covering and a Brigg–Cherry pure silk Umbrella for weather protection. Delivered with B&W TV-set specially designed for the M10-M by Bang & Olufsen. All for $37.995
- M10-OH with Orthochromatic sensor sensitive only to green and blue so the pictured ones will look affluent with permanent suntan. Comes with a pair of his & hers Cartier Sunglasses with Persimmon Red lenses. Only $29.995
- Ultra-Elmar 50/3.5 Apo-Aspherical. Collapsible. Iridium plated. Available in M- and screw-mounts. Comes with compendium shade bellows made of Green Python Skin. For $11.995
- Field-Marshal style Monocle with Rim made of Albino Water Buffalo Horn with interchangeable lenses: User selectable options from Circular Polarizer to Deep Red IR to Iris Blue (designed to wear while looking through the finder of the M10-OH) including an exclusive dinner with the President of Leica Dr. Kaufmann. Yours for $9.995
- Camera Case for M10; made of Unborn Pony Leather covered with Charcoal Chinchilla Fur featuring a Maroon Lacquered Business Card Holder on the backside and a Mother of Pearl Fountain Pen to note rendesvous. In Box made of Mpingo Wood $7.995
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I liken the Leica/luxury goods scenario to buying a time piece and choosing a Rolex because you can!
The market is full of items that are more related to being a reward for wealth than they are a practical purchase choice. Leica fits here ... so what! I would like to think I make the lesser choice due to common sense but until I'm in the financial position to consider the alternative ... I'll never know!
The market is full of items that are more related to being a reward for wealth than they are a practical purchase choice. Leica fits here ... so what! I would like to think I make the lesser choice due to common sense but until I'm in the financial position to consider the alternative ... I'll never know!
Lax Jought
Well-known
They'd stop jacking up the prices if people stopped buying them. That's a guarantee.
jarski
Veteran
this rather proves thegman's point. Leica hasn't made a dime from you since 1980's? and probably much less from majority of angry protesters here, who refuse just "shrug and move on"
Teuthida
Well-known
I used fo be a Leica guy, back when we used film. Now I'm a Fuji guy.
robert blu
quiet photographer
@ PKR grazie, it will be a good afternoon, I'll go to visit a photo exhibition!
I agree with what you say, which in my words means that for me as a normal amateur, even if I can afford it is not worthwhile to buy a "too" expensive digital camera, where the concept of too can be different for different people.
robert
PS: I still like to shoot my Nikon FM2 !
I agree with what you say, which in my words means that for me as a normal amateur, even if I can afford it is not worthwhile to buy a "too" expensive digital camera, where the concept of too can be different for different people.
robert
PS: I still like to shoot my Nikon FM2 !
bigeye
Well-known
As Marek mentions every major luxury market producer has traded on their name - Lotus, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, on and on...which everyone ignores but for 15 year olds, the Robb Report and collectors.
That Leica made so finely focused a camera as the M9M - possibly the ultimate 'purpose-built rig' (for better or worse) - is about as strong an anti-mainstream and anti-mass market statement that can be made.
Regardless of cost (if you have to ask...), it would be pretty handy to swing a M9 and M9M pair.
- Charlie
That Leica made so finely focused a camera as the M9M - possibly the ultimate 'purpose-built rig' (for better or worse) - is about as strong an anti-mainstream and anti-mass market statement that can be made.
Regardless of cost (if you have to ask...), it would be pretty handy to swing a M9 and M9M pair.
- Charlie