Grubriella
Member
Hi everyone
Not a regular here, but have been lurking for a while now.
I was wondering if I could get some information on this camera from actual users out there.
I am considering on buying a well kept, used Mamiya Universal with a Polaroid back and the 100mm lens, all for $400.
Is this worth it? Would it cost a lot to get an adapter and get a 6x6 or 6x7 back?
My trusty Autocord got absolutely demolished recently (don't ask) and I was thinking of saving up for a Hasselblad 500c/m (and was briefly considering a Kiev as well!), but I do prefer Rangefinder focusing most of the time and it seems so much cheaper than the Hasselblad.
Thanks!
Not a regular here, but have been lurking for a while now.
I was wondering if I could get some information on this camera from actual users out there.
I am considering on buying a well kept, used Mamiya Universal with a Polaroid back and the 100mm lens, all for $400.
Is this worth it? Would it cost a lot to get an adapter and get a 6x6 or 6x7 back?
My trusty Autocord got absolutely demolished recently (don't ask) and I was thinking of saving up for a Hasselblad 500c/m (and was briefly considering a Kiev as well!), but I do prefer Rangefinder focusing most of the time and it seems so much cheaper than the Hasselblad.
Thanks!
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Prices are on the rise, and they now sometimes sell for something like that, but it is no bargain. In the past weeks, several with film back sold for something similar on ebay, and the film back generally sets you off by 50-100 over the Polaroid back.
Super 23's with film back even sold for half that price. For whatever reason, Universals sell for much more than Super 23's, even though the latter essentially is the same camera, with integrated macro bellows with movements replacing the receptacle for Polaroid and Graflok (should you ever find a adapter frame) adapters!
HoodedOne
Well-known
I find the Univesal a fatastic camera, build like a tank and equally heavy.
$400 for a complete set is normal. But if you want to use it with rollfilm I would look for a set with a rollfilm back. Because it would also include the M-adapter that you'll need to mount the back.
A loose M-adapter will cost you around $100, and the rollfilm backs can be found for the same price.
If 6x6 is a must, start looking for the older rollfilm backs for multiple formats. But a good one with the masks for the different sizes, and the masks for the viewfinder will cost a lot of money.
You can also ask Tony Sansone (ebay: iptradingaol) if he can help you.
$400 for a complete set is normal. But if you want to use it with rollfilm I would look for a set with a rollfilm back. Because it would also include the M-adapter that you'll need to mount the back.
A loose M-adapter will cost you around $100, and the rollfilm backs can be found for the same price.
If 6x6 is a must, start looking for the older rollfilm backs for multiple formats. But a good one with the masks for the different sizes, and the masks for the viewfinder will cost a lot of money.
You can also ask Tony Sansone (ebay: iptradingaol) if he can help you.
HoodedOne
Well-known
The super23 has a non-removable adapter on it. Both adapters ( M & G) can be found on the super23. But you're limited in your choice of accessories.
That's why the super23 are cheaper then the universals.
Grubriella
Member
Thanks for your quick responses!
Actually, this comes with the M adapter. Forgot to mention that earlier.
I don't mind 6x7 or 6x9, but really would prefer 6x7. This would fit in the M adapter I assume?
But really, is the hasselblad so much better and should I save for that instead?
Actually, this comes with the M adapter. Forgot to mention that earlier.
I don't mind 6x7 or 6x9, but really would prefer 6x7. This would fit in the M adapter I assume?
But really, is the hasselblad so much better and should I save for that instead?
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Well, that might explain the collectors appeal - these love to hoard accessories they never need nor use. But as far as complexity of components is concerned, the semi view camera bellows of the Super 23 will have accounted for higher production cost than the swappable metal frame of the Universal. And compared to movements and integrated macro, being able to attach Polaroid packs and two different film magazine systems (that hold exactly the same film) does not seem much of a feat either...
In any case, I have not seen a single "G" Super 23 in my life, nor even a single first person account of one. If they ever sold any, it must have been far from Europe and can't have been a roaring success (it obviously was pitched against the Graflex XL - but just about zero of these sold in Europe as well).
rlouzan
Well-known
Hi,
Take a look at the old Fuji rangefinder cameras:
http://www.antiquecameras.net/fuji6x76x9.html
Regards,
Robert
Take a look at the old Fuji rangefinder cameras:
http://www.antiquecameras.net/fuji6x76x9.html
Regards,
Robert
HoodedOne
Well-known
With a M-adapter you have a good deal. Every mamiya rollfilm back should fit.
The Hasselblad is a great camera. But I would never trade the universal for a Hassie. And you can't shoot full frame Polaroid with a Hasselblad.
The Hasselblad is a great camera. But I would never trade the universal for a Hassie. And you can't shoot full frame Polaroid with a Hasselblad.
Vincent.G
Well-known
If you like 6x6, there's a wonderful Mamiya 6 kit for sale in the classifieds.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Entirely different beast - you may like one or the other better, but they cannot fully replace each other. Is a Nikon F better than a Leica M?
Grubriella
Member
Thanks again, everyone.
Vincent, I would, but it is out of my budget...
rlouzan, thanks for the suggestion, but I don't particularly want 6x9. I would go with a 6x7 on the mamiya
Thanks for your thoughts, sevo and HoodedOne.
I'll think about it a bit more and see how it goes.
Vincent, I would, but it is out of my budget...
rlouzan, thanks for the suggestion, but I don't particularly want 6x9. I would go with a 6x7 on the mamiya
Thanks for your thoughts, sevo and HoodedOne.
I'll think about it a bit more and see how it goes.
HoodedOne
Well-known
Check eBay Sevo. There are two G super23 being offered right now.
The bellows is nice, if you shoot from a tripod. But handheld it becomes pretty useless.
And a bellows is always a weak spot. Getting them fixed / replaced might become a costly repair, or nearly impossible.
rbelyell
Well-known
i recently sold my even more complete outfit. simply put, the output and flexibilty of this system cannot be duplicated. unfortunately for me, neither could the bulk/weight of it. i needed to carry it around in a backpack, and it is very heavy. most folks, though not me, will only shoot these with a tripod. its not just a camera system, you should understand it is a 'lifestyle'.
tony
tony
oftheherd
Veteran
I have seen them offered on ebay several times in the past. I see from another post here there are a couple on ebay now. I never considered them a particularly good deal since I had the Super Press 23 of about 1976 vintage. The G were older. I had cut film holders and roll film backs for my Super Press. Also, I think the G roll film holders are getting a lot more difficult to find. I think I was more intrigued by the novelty that what I considered any usefulness.
I don't understand the pricing on the Mamiya Press line right now. Of course, they aren't being made any more, and the Universal and Super Press 23 are excellent cameras. But they almost seem to be acquiring a cult status. I personally think the Press 23 is a more useful camera, not needing an extra back. I don't need nor want Polaroid anyway. As an aside, I have never needed the 'movements' of the 23. How many movements are needed in 4x5 for most photography? It's there if one needs it, just like the added movements for 4x5. But for me at least, I don't do that so much.
About 3-4 years ago, I developed a back problem that just about made me consider getting rid of the Press 23. I am glad I did not. I have gotten better, it not cured. 20 to 30 years ago, when I was stronger and no doubt dumber, I didn't think too much of carrying a large 35mm kit and the Press 23 with 100mm and roll film back, especially if it wasn't too far. I would be very disinclined to do so now. I think most all MF cameras, especially in the 6x7 and 6x9 range, or SLR, will be heavy. That's another reason I like my folders.
rbelyell
Well-known
yeah, i personally dont buy into 'suffering for art'. however, in terms of flexibility of shooting 645, 6x7, 6x9, polaroid, different incredible quality lenses, i again say this system cannot be duplicated. you just need to know and strongly consider what you are getting into. this one you must do with your head, not your heart.
tony
tony
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Yep, it is odd, and not entirely justifiable any more, compared to other medium format systems, in particular the 6x7 SLRs. When I bought mine, they were a cheap entry into greater than 6x6 formats - much cheaper than the Fujis or RB and RZ. I paid something like 80€ for a complete Super 23, and more recently 250€ for a mint Universal with two type 3 holders including release cables - both then no bargains but common ebay prices.
Right now, prices for black Universals have reached Fuji GW proportions, and the 50mm and 2.8/100mm have grown so outrageously expensive that you can get a complete RZ kit with both a 50mm and 110/2.8 for the price of just one of them....
jbielikowski
Jan Bielikowski
If you dont need movements of Press 23 get Koni Omega, its cheaper, lighter, smaller, simpler and has one lever for both shutter and film rewind.
kuzano
Veteran
Everything is pretty much covered in this thread.
Everything is pretty much covered in this thread.
There seem to be many Mamiya Press users here. I can think of a couple more points.
1) Makes no sense to buy a 23, or super 23 except for lower cost. It's limited in backs that can be used. In order to actually make use of the bellows back which is fixed in place, you need to make sure to get the collapsible 90 or 100mm lens. Not all the 100's have the collapsible helical to use the bellows. However the 23 does use all the Mamiya backs 645, 66, 67 and 69. I have an earlier press that has the graflok back ONLY for using the graflex type backs.
2) The universal can utilize a much wider range of backs due to the adaptor style back instead of the bellows. The back opening on the Universal was opened up greatly from the Super 23 to accomodate pack film (instant), so there are the M, M vertical and G adaptors. Each type of adaptor is quite spendy by itself, so it pays to buy the Universal with the back you intend to use.
3) Unless the camera is Excellent Plus (I never use the term Mint), I think $400 is a bit high simply for not having the back you want.
4) I think $400 should buy a very nice Universal with a 100mm lens (f3.5), an M adaptor and one back. Check any backs for light traps and film spacing if you can. M backs are noted for film flatness. Another option would be a G back and a good Graflex film holder. However Graflex holders have one problem on the Universal. They stick out farther from the back and it's harder to get your eye close to the viewfinder/rangefinder. Graflex backs are also not as good on film flatness UNLESS you particulary search for the later Graflex holders with the additional pin rollers at the ends of the film opening for flattening the film in the opening.
5) Lenses made after the larger back opening of the Universal or that transitioned from the Polaroid 600SE, have a larger image circle. Those would be the 50, 75, and 127 (which was the normal lens for the polaroid 3x4 film pack).
6) Although all the lenses are exceptional, there was also a faster f2.8 100 mm lens of Planar design (as I recall) that will match anything you can do with a Hasselblad and a Zeiss lens.
7) Getting difficult to find any of the Mamiya super 23 or Universal camera's with good cosmetics on the top. The top cover over the rangefinder is a very exposed (out there) and soft aluminum metal that one can dent with a "sneeze". I've had a lot of Universals, and a couple of the tops were straight and one color. Occasionally you will find a new part "top hood" for a universal on eBay. Buy it!!!
8) There is a long standing repair person on the Mamiya's and he repairs and refurbishes Mamiya's and Polaroid 600SE's. He often has complete or partial systems for sale. I've used his services, although he has slowed down somewhat, being heavily involved in the family Virgin Olive Oil business. (sorry, cant think of his name right now. it will come to me today and I will post back)
9) Don't be deluded by those who indicate crossover accessories for the Mamiya bodies and the Polaroid 600SE. The claw feet on the accessory backs are different between the two MFR cameras. The breechlock for the lens helicals are different on the front. This was a contractual arrangement when Mamiya contracted to build the Polaroid 600SE system for Polaroid. It was done to preclude lens and accessory sale losses for each company. Now it happens that most of the lenses were eventually mounted in both MFR helicals, but many of the same lenses are misrepresented as fitting both. No, the lens or back adaptor you buy fits ONE or THE OTHER.
It's a tricky, but wonderful system. I have no doubt you can buy your ideal system at or near the $400, rather than the one you are looking at, and another $200/250 to make it be what you want.
One Caveat.... There are so many variations of accessories for the Mamiya Universal, it is the ultimate GAS system.
Buy exactly the final system you want, shoot it, and don't look at the other stuff. Hell, you can even find tons of parts for shooting sheet film????
Good luck.
Everything is pretty much covered in this thread.
There seem to be many Mamiya Press users here. I can think of a couple more points.
1) Makes no sense to buy a 23, or super 23 except for lower cost. It's limited in backs that can be used. In order to actually make use of the bellows back which is fixed in place, you need to make sure to get the collapsible 90 or 100mm lens. Not all the 100's have the collapsible helical to use the bellows. However the 23 does use all the Mamiya backs 645, 66, 67 and 69. I have an earlier press that has the graflok back ONLY for using the graflex type backs.
2) The universal can utilize a much wider range of backs due to the adaptor style back instead of the bellows. The back opening on the Universal was opened up greatly from the Super 23 to accomodate pack film (instant), so there are the M, M vertical and G adaptors. Each type of adaptor is quite spendy by itself, so it pays to buy the Universal with the back you intend to use.
3) Unless the camera is Excellent Plus (I never use the term Mint), I think $400 is a bit high simply for not having the back you want.
4) I think $400 should buy a very nice Universal with a 100mm lens (f3.5), an M adaptor and one back. Check any backs for light traps and film spacing if you can. M backs are noted for film flatness. Another option would be a G back and a good Graflex film holder. However Graflex holders have one problem on the Universal. They stick out farther from the back and it's harder to get your eye close to the viewfinder/rangefinder. Graflex backs are also not as good on film flatness UNLESS you particulary search for the later Graflex holders with the additional pin rollers at the ends of the film opening for flattening the film in the opening.
5) Lenses made after the larger back opening of the Universal or that transitioned from the Polaroid 600SE, have a larger image circle. Those would be the 50, 75, and 127 (which was the normal lens for the polaroid 3x4 film pack).
6) Although all the lenses are exceptional, there was also a faster f2.8 100 mm lens of Planar design (as I recall) that will match anything you can do with a Hasselblad and a Zeiss lens.
7) Getting difficult to find any of the Mamiya super 23 or Universal camera's with good cosmetics on the top. The top cover over the rangefinder is a very exposed (out there) and soft aluminum metal that one can dent with a "sneeze". I've had a lot of Universals, and a couple of the tops were straight and one color. Occasionally you will find a new part "top hood" for a universal on eBay. Buy it!!!
8) There is a long standing repair person on the Mamiya's and he repairs and refurbishes Mamiya's and Polaroid 600SE's. He often has complete or partial systems for sale. I've used his services, although he has slowed down somewhat, being heavily involved in the family Virgin Olive Oil business. (sorry, cant think of his name right now. it will come to me today and I will post back)
9) Don't be deluded by those who indicate crossover accessories for the Mamiya bodies and the Polaroid 600SE. The claw feet on the accessory backs are different between the two MFR cameras. The breechlock for the lens helicals are different on the front. This was a contractual arrangement when Mamiya contracted to build the Polaroid 600SE system for Polaroid. It was done to preclude lens and accessory sale losses for each company. Now it happens that most of the lenses were eventually mounted in both MFR helicals, but many of the same lenses are misrepresented as fitting both. No, the lens or back adaptor you buy fits ONE or THE OTHER.
It's a tricky, but wonderful system. I have no doubt you can buy your ideal system at or near the $400, rather than the one you are looking at, and another $200/250 to make it be what you want.
One Caveat.... There are so many variations of accessories for the Mamiya Universal, it is the ultimate GAS system.
Buy exactly the final system you want, shoot it, and don't look at the other stuff. Hell, you can even find tons of parts for shooting sheet film????
Good luck.
nanntonaku
Established
Anthony Sansone is the guy's name.
one other mamiya user on flickr hasnt had much luck reaching him recently.
one other mamiya user on flickr hasnt had much luck reaching him recently.
kuzano
Veteran
Thanks....
Thanks....
The only part I have remembered so far is that the best way to reach Tony is through his family "Virgin Oil" web site for Kreta Reserve Virgin Olive Oil. That's how I've contacted him when I did. It's been a couple of years. He also has a couple of dedicated Mamiya Press/Polaroid 600 text style pages on that web site.
I need to contact him and see if he can rebuild a Mamiya Type III 6X9 back for me. That's the one with the shutter release built in and I also have the almost non existant special shutter cable.
Thanks....
The only part I have remembered so far is that the best way to reach Tony is through his family "Virgin Oil" web site for Kreta Reserve Virgin Olive Oil. That's how I've contacted him when I did. It's been a couple of years. He also has a couple of dedicated Mamiya Press/Polaroid 600 text style pages on that web site.
I need to contact him and see if he can rebuild a Mamiya Type III 6X9 back for me. That's the one with the shutter release built in and I also have the almost non existant special shutter cable.