Dave Jenkins
Loose Canon
I’ve been using the Olympus E-PL1 for nearly two years now, and I still can’t get used to it. My difficulties are truly almost enough to drive me back to using film in an OM-1 or 2. I’ve been saving up for an OM-D, but now I’m not so sure that’s the way to go.
Here are the things I hate:
1. Menus. I hate, hate, hate the menus. It seems like whenever I touch the wrong button (which I seem to do most of the time) I have to dig through the menu system to find some obscure thing I did wrong. The information about how to correct it often seems even more obscure. The menus in Canon’s D-series cameras are worlds simpler to use, and while they’re not analog, they are a lot closer to it.
2. Buttons. I hate having to fiddle around with the buttons to set the camera up for a shot. This whole way of doing things is so slooow. I long for the days of analog, when it was just aperture, shutter speed, and focus, all done with simple, easy-to-find-and-use controls. Can’t anyone other than Leica make a compact digital camera with simple controls?
3. The EVF. I have read that the Olympus VF-2 is the best of the electronic viewfinders and that the OMD is even better. I hope so, because I find the view through my Canon 5D better in every way than the VF-2. Kirk Tuck speaks highly about “pre-chimping,” but it just doesn’t seem to work that way for me.
4. General inconvenience. It seems that every time I pick up the camera it’s set wrong for what I want to do with it. So I have to fuss with the menus for a while before I can make the photo (assuming my subject is still there).
In the same vein, when I want to use the EVF, I usually find it’s set to display the LCD, and when I want to use the LCD it’s usually set to the EVF.
Also, I’m constantly nudging the EVF with my glasses and tipping it up when I don’t want it tipped up. Nothing major, maybe, but just one more thing. . .
So, do I like anything about the camera?
Yes. 1. I love, love, love the size and weight. And not only are the E-Pen bodies small and light, the lenses are also small and light. After carrying a 5D and three zooms to Israel two years ago, I resolved that I would never again burden myself with that kind of weight.
I could switch to a Canon Rebel, which is also small and light (though not as much), but then I’m stuck with big, heavy lenses again. Same with the Sony NEX system.
2. The image quality. Maybe not as good as the 5D, but very, very good. The files look great in the large format coffee-table books I do.
3. The out-of-camera jpegs. If I meter carefully I can avoid the extra nuisance step of converting RAW files to jpegs. And the Oly jpegs are great, as many have remarked.
I’m in a quandary. I find the E-PL1 slow and inconvenient to use, but I need small and light. I still have OM film bodies and a few lenses. Should I go back to them? Should I just learn to live with the weight of my Canon system? Is the OM-D the solution to my problems? What to do, what to do, what to do?
Here are the things I hate:
1. Menus. I hate, hate, hate the menus. It seems like whenever I touch the wrong button (which I seem to do most of the time) I have to dig through the menu system to find some obscure thing I did wrong. The information about how to correct it often seems even more obscure. The menus in Canon’s D-series cameras are worlds simpler to use, and while they’re not analog, they are a lot closer to it.
2. Buttons. I hate having to fiddle around with the buttons to set the camera up for a shot. This whole way of doing things is so slooow. I long for the days of analog, when it was just aperture, shutter speed, and focus, all done with simple, easy-to-find-and-use controls. Can’t anyone other than Leica make a compact digital camera with simple controls?
3. The EVF. I have read that the Olympus VF-2 is the best of the electronic viewfinders and that the OMD is even better. I hope so, because I find the view through my Canon 5D better in every way than the VF-2. Kirk Tuck speaks highly about “pre-chimping,” but it just doesn’t seem to work that way for me.
4. General inconvenience. It seems that every time I pick up the camera it’s set wrong for what I want to do with it. So I have to fuss with the menus for a while before I can make the photo (assuming my subject is still there).
In the same vein, when I want to use the EVF, I usually find it’s set to display the LCD, and when I want to use the LCD it’s usually set to the EVF.
Also, I’m constantly nudging the EVF with my glasses and tipping it up when I don’t want it tipped up. Nothing major, maybe, but just one more thing. . .
So, do I like anything about the camera?
Yes. 1. I love, love, love the size and weight. And not only are the E-Pen bodies small and light, the lenses are also small and light. After carrying a 5D and three zooms to Israel two years ago, I resolved that I would never again burden myself with that kind of weight.
I could switch to a Canon Rebel, which is also small and light (though not as much), but then I’m stuck with big, heavy lenses again. Same with the Sony NEX system.
2. The image quality. Maybe not as good as the 5D, but very, very good. The files look great in the large format coffee-table books I do.
3. The out-of-camera jpegs. If I meter carefully I can avoid the extra nuisance step of converting RAW files to jpegs. And the Oly jpegs are great, as many have remarked.
I’m in a quandary. I find the E-PL1 slow and inconvenient to use, but I need small and light. I still have OM film bodies and a few lenses. Should I go back to them? Should I just learn to live with the weight of my Canon system? Is the OM-D the solution to my problems? What to do, what to do, what to do?
rbelyell
Well-known
i am a long time olympus, and 5d, user: ep1, ep2 with evf, now omd. like you, i find the menu system perhaps the worst ive ever used. unlike you, i do not quite understand what necessitates repeated entries to the menu system. simply pressing the center 'ok' button gives one easy access to all important 'shooting' settings, including setting IS. thankfully after some initial torture getting the 'menus' where i want them, i find i hardly ever need go there again.
if you find the system referenced by the 'ok' button to be too cumbersome and it really interferes with the fun of shooting, i might respectfully suggest that perhaps shooting digital is not going to be fun for you. that would be a little confusing to me because i find very little difference between that menu system and the 5d's for controlling common shooting parameters.
you might also want to consider a true digital rangefinder like the rd1 or M8. they might offer you the uncluttered shooting experience you want, compactness as well. it will not get you good low light performance though.
tony
if you find the system referenced by the 'ok' button to be too cumbersome and it really interferes with the fun of shooting, i might respectfully suggest that perhaps shooting digital is not going to be fun for you. that would be a little confusing to me because i find very little difference between that menu system and the 5d's for controlling common shooting parameters.
you might also want to consider a true digital rangefinder like the rd1 or M8. they might offer you the uncluttered shooting experience you want, compactness as well. it will not get you good low light performance though.
tony
kshapero
South Florida Man
My M3 is sounding better all the time.
btgc
Veteran
I don't own any digital camera with a dial on back like E-PL2 and some other Pens but once I used similar camera and all the time settings were misadjusted accidentally. In this regard I find buttons more prone to be pressed accidentally.
This days I wondered how Pen users feel about difference between buttons and dial, which one do you prefer?
As for me, I understand you, Dave - and I think I'll skip DSLRs completely without owning one. Pen looks such a nice compromise, between size/weight and imaging capabilities.
This days I wondered how Pen users feel about difference between buttons and dial, which one do you prefer?
As for me, I understand you, Dave - and I think I'll skip DSLRs completely without owning one. Pen looks such a nice compromise, between size/weight and imaging capabilities.
Gerry M
Gerry
Dave,
When those frustrations come from using my Lumix G1, I grab an OM kit, or F100, N80, F2A, CL or 7S and enter another world. I know this doesn't really address your concerns, but it works for me. I'm not sure if there is an answer with the small bodied digi's. If you do find a solution, please make it public.
When those frustrations come from using my Lumix G1, I grab an OM kit, or F100, N80, F2A, CL or 7S and enter another world. I know this doesn't really address your concerns, but it works for me. I'm not sure if there is an answer with the small bodied digi's. If you do find a solution, please make it public.
wblynch
Well-known
The Panasonic G1 has been great for me and very easy to use. I don't ever use the menus.
I don't use it often now, since I went back to film photography with OM's and a dozen other cameras.
I'm having too much fun to worry about menus.
But I do like the G1 for those digital times.
I don't use it often now, since I went back to film photography with OM's and a dozen other cameras.
I'm having too much fun to worry about menus.
But I do like the G1 for those digital times.
dreilly
Chillin' in Geneva
Dave, I'm not sure any digital cameras are for you. Maybe the Epson R-D1. Barely a menu to speak of. Analog controls AND dials. Great camera, really, but not very versatile.
Maybe the X100? Aperture, shutter speed, but a fixed lens. Simple menus...
On point #4:
If you had a manual camera like an OM-1, how would that be any different from a OM-D set to manual mode, one dial for aperture, one for shutter speed, set for a specific ISO? It would seem to me that the OM-1 would be similarly unready as many times as the OM-D would be. Actually I would think an OM-D would be more versatile, because just push whatever button you set ISO too and change it with the dial, a lot easier than changing a roll of film (and if you're in MID roll?) Yes, it's a button, though the buttons on the OM-D aren't as prone to accidental setting as on the Pens (I had an E-P1 and especially the wheely thing on back was always setting itself to something different).
The EVF/LCD can be set with a button on the side. No big deal.
So you might be satisfied with the OMD. The evf won't get knocked up (ha!) but it won't satisfy you much more than the one you have now quality-wise. I'm not sure the X100 OVF would either. It's no full-frame finder.
Given how much trouble you're having with the dominant UI design of pretty much ALL digital cameras, I'd recommend you try to hold an OM-D before you buy one.
Maybe the X100? Aperture, shutter speed, but a fixed lens. Simple menus...
On point #4:
If you had a manual camera like an OM-1, how would that be any different from a OM-D set to manual mode, one dial for aperture, one for shutter speed, set for a specific ISO? It would seem to me that the OM-1 would be similarly unready as many times as the OM-D would be. Actually I would think an OM-D would be more versatile, because just push whatever button you set ISO too and change it with the dial, a lot easier than changing a roll of film (and if you're in MID roll?) Yes, it's a button, though the buttons on the OM-D aren't as prone to accidental setting as on the Pens (I had an E-P1 and especially the wheely thing on back was always setting itself to something different).
The EVF/LCD can be set with a button on the side. No big deal.
So you might be satisfied with the OMD. The evf won't get knocked up (ha!) but it won't satisfy you much more than the one you have now quality-wise. I'm not sure the X100 OVF would either. It's no full-frame finder.
Given how much trouble you're having with the dominant UI design of pretty much ALL digital cameras, I'd recommend you try to hold an OM-D before you buy one.
dfatty
Well-known
As I've read elsewhere and agree with, the ability to customize the OMD is a blessing and a curse. The OMD can be great once you get all the buttons and dials set up for what you want them to do, but doing the setup itself can be a pain the butt because of the menus. Personally, I find the menus more confusing than Canon's, although the CF menus in Canon aren't much of a treat either.
As between the OMD and EPL1 (which my wife has), I find the OMD handling to be much better because of the two dials. In A mode, one dial is aperture the other is exposure compensation, easy, and it comes set up like that I think. Then set one of the other buttons to ISO and you're done. In M mode, one dial is aperture the other is shutter speed (again, I think it comes like that), then set one of the other buttons to ISO and you're done. Easy shooting once set.
And if you set up the OK button to bring up supercontrol panel (which I had to check the internet to find out how to do), then you have access to White balance and other settings. The only other button assignment I did was to set one of the function keys to magnify, to make the AF box is smaller. So if you're willing to go through the initial pain (or can get a shop to do it for you), it's possible to set up the OMD to work fairly simply.
In a few years I'll figure out how to use the art filters, lol.
As between the OMD and EPL1 (which my wife has), I find the OMD handling to be much better because of the two dials. In A mode, one dial is aperture the other is exposure compensation, easy, and it comes set up like that I think. Then set one of the other buttons to ISO and you're done. In M mode, one dial is aperture the other is shutter speed (again, I think it comes like that), then set one of the other buttons to ISO and you're done. Easy shooting once set.
And if you set up the OK button to bring up supercontrol panel (which I had to check the internet to find out how to do), then you have access to White balance and other settings. The only other button assignment I did was to set one of the function keys to magnify, to make the AF box is smaller. So if you're willing to go through the initial pain (or can get a shop to do it for you), it's possible to set up the OMD to work fairly simply.
In a few years I'll figure out how to use the art filters, lol.
zauhar
Veteran
What a co-incidence - just this morning I was looking at the E-PL series as "maybe" the sort of digital camera I could try out and maybe live with.
Dave, you sound uncomfortably similar to me - I think I better cleave tight to my M3 and IIIf at the moment.
Randy
Dave, you sound uncomfortably similar to me - I think I better cleave tight to my M3 and IIIf at the moment.
Randy
The closest digital to a film camera with regard to ergonomics are the Epsons and the Leica M8/9. We know that already. Second would be the Leica X1/X2. Third, the Fujis.
Dave Jenkins
Loose Canon
Guys, your input has been great, but I guess maybe I should give you a little clarification. I’m by no means a novice -- I’ve been a working photographer since the late 60s, full time since 1978. I switched to digital in 2003 with the Canon 10D and was exclusively digital until 2010, when I began to shoot a little film in a TLR and an OM-2. But I’m not really planning to go back to film, I’m just frustrated and blowing off steam.
I find the Canon digital interface to be intuitive for me, and when I set something, it stays set until I change it. Not so the E-PL1. Maybe the twin-dial system of the OM-D will be the answer for me.
Both Dean and Doug had especially helpful suggestions. I don’t have a problem with the initial set-up menus. If I can set up the OM-D the way I want it and it will stay that way, I’ll be a happy camper.
I find the Canon digital interface to be intuitive for me, and when I set something, it stays set until I change it. Not so the E-PL1. Maybe the twin-dial system of the OM-D will be the answer for me.
Both Dean and Doug had especially helpful suggestions. I don’t have a problem with the initial set-up menus. If I can set up the OM-D the way I want it and it will stay that way, I’ll be a happy camper.
dfatty
Well-known
Glad to help, Dave. The one setting that I'm not sure can be permanent is the small AF box. But one button press and it's set. The other settings are permanent AFAIK. Just to be clear, the settings I'm talking about aren't "set-up menus" that pop up when you first turn on a new camera, they are menus buried in the Olympus menu maze. Some of the things, like activating the super control panel, are really buried in there. But once set, they're set. And with the internet, I just put searches in google on how to change things, I don't even bother with the manual.
Anyway, the two dial handling is *much* different than the EPL1 (which I hate), so I expect you'll notice a difference. Also, if you set up the 4 way buttons on the back to move the AF point (which is how I have it), accidentally bumping those buttons doesn't change anything, just moves the AF point. I do miss the "joystick" on Canon bodies for moving the AF point, but the arrow buttons are okay.
Anyway, the two dial handling is *much* different than the EPL1 (which I hate), so I expect you'll notice a difference. Also, if you set up the 4 way buttons on the back to move the AF point (which is how I have it), accidentally bumping those buttons doesn't change anything, just moves the AF point. I do miss the "joystick" on Canon bodies for moving the AF point, but the arrow buttons are okay.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
OMD ... set it and forget it.
I've assigned a couple of buttons to do the basics (ISO and 50% zoom for critical focus) and I focus mine manually and leave the LCD off!. When set up like this the camera is little different to an OM-2 in reality. Set it to manual with centre weighted metering and it becomes an OM-1.
I think the great Maitani would approve of this camera.
I've assigned a couple of buttons to do the basics (ISO and 50% zoom for critical focus) and I focus mine manually and leave the LCD off!. When set up like this the camera is little different to an OM-2 in reality. Set it to manual with centre weighted metering and it becomes an OM-1.
I think the great Maitani would approve of this camera.
RObert Budding
D'oh!
Perhaps you should just buy a few small primes for your DSLR. Yes, the kit will be bigger than the M43, but it will also be much lighter than lugging about several zoom lenses.
Dogman
Veteran
Hey, Dave. I understand and feel your frustration. I also felt that way about my E-P1 when I first started using it but eventually learned to love it. I've since added a couple of E-P2 bodies and now do most of my shooting with the E-Pens. Some of my advice below is redundant based on previous responses but maybe it can help a little bit as well.
1--I hate menus too. And the Olympus menus suck big time. I'm not familiar with the layout of the E-PL1 but it probably has a simplified menu (the "OK" button) that can be accessed. That simplified menu has everything you need to access for shooting purposes. The main problem is that you have to delve into the main menus and set up the camera the way you want it to begin with.
2--I agree. And the buttons are small and closely spaced. But the cameras don't require a lot of adjustment unless you absolutely refuse to use any of the automatic modes. Personally, I use aperture priority mode for everything and let the camera set the rest. Saves fiddling with anything but the focus button. Incidentally, I set the AFL/AEL to do the AF and only use the shutter button for shutter release. Saves a lot of frustration with the camera re-focusing every single shot.
3--I agree again concerning the EVF. To me, it serves the purpose when used with a zoom lens, an legacy manual focus lens or a telephoto lens. For wide to normal, I use auxiliary brightline OVFs in the hot shoe with only the center AF point functional. The view is uncluttered and always bright and clear.
4--If the E-PL1 is anything like the E-P1, you probably turn dials or push buttons unintentionally. The damn things respond to the slightest touch. But if it's like the E-P1, you can change function of some of the button or turn off the function totally. Gotta go through the menus to find this out, however. I fought with my E-P1 for months until I found out how to turn off the 4-way buttons around the rear dial. They still function for scrolling in playback mode. All their original shooting functions are accessed with the "OK" button anyway.
The Canon menus are more intuitive compared to the Olympus menus. Still, my first digital camera was the Canon 30D and I had no idea what those menus meant when I first started trying to use that camera despite years of using Canon EOS film bodies. Nowadays, I can pick up just about any Canon digital and use it without looking at the instruction book. The Olympus menus are pretty much the same--you get familiar with the layout and they're easier to understand. After buying the E-Pen cameras, I bought an Olympus dSLR. The menus on that camera were easy to navigate after becoming familiar with them in the E-Pens.
1--I hate menus too. And the Olympus menus suck big time. I'm not familiar with the layout of the E-PL1 but it probably has a simplified menu (the "OK" button) that can be accessed. That simplified menu has everything you need to access for shooting purposes. The main problem is that you have to delve into the main menus and set up the camera the way you want it to begin with.
2--I agree. And the buttons are small and closely spaced. But the cameras don't require a lot of adjustment unless you absolutely refuse to use any of the automatic modes. Personally, I use aperture priority mode for everything and let the camera set the rest. Saves fiddling with anything but the focus button. Incidentally, I set the AFL/AEL to do the AF and only use the shutter button for shutter release. Saves a lot of frustration with the camera re-focusing every single shot.
3--I agree again concerning the EVF. To me, it serves the purpose when used with a zoom lens, an legacy manual focus lens or a telephoto lens. For wide to normal, I use auxiliary brightline OVFs in the hot shoe with only the center AF point functional. The view is uncluttered and always bright and clear.
4--If the E-PL1 is anything like the E-P1, you probably turn dials or push buttons unintentionally. The damn things respond to the slightest touch. But if it's like the E-P1, you can change function of some of the button or turn off the function totally. Gotta go through the menus to find this out, however. I fought with my E-P1 for months until I found out how to turn off the 4-way buttons around the rear dial. They still function for scrolling in playback mode. All their original shooting functions are accessed with the "OK" button anyway.
The Canon menus are more intuitive compared to the Olympus menus. Still, my first digital camera was the Canon 30D and I had no idea what those menus meant when I first started trying to use that camera despite years of using Canon EOS film bodies. Nowadays, I can pick up just about any Canon digital and use it without looking at the instruction book. The Olympus menus are pretty much the same--you get familiar with the layout and they're easier to understand. After buying the E-Pen cameras, I bought an Olympus dSLR. The menus on that camera were easy to navigate after becoming familiar with them in the E-Pens.
gavinlg
Veteran
The x100 is pretty simple if you just use it like a rangefinder. It has 2 menus and external controls for everything. Alternatively the x-pro1 has the interchangeable lenses, and is still way smaller/lighter than a dslr. The OM-D can be set and forget, but it should be known that it has possibly the biggest and most comprehensive set of custom settings in the menus of any camera in existence.
Personally I feel that barring the fixed lens the x100 is one of the simplest digital cameras I've used - I just shoot manual everything, RAW and it's pretty much like a leica M.
Personally I feel that barring the fixed lens the x100 is one of the simplest digital cameras I've used - I just shoot manual everything, RAW and it's pretty much like a leica M.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Gav ... I know you're a fan of the X100 ... but! ^^^
gavinlg
Veteran
Gav ... I know you're a fan of the X100 ... but! ^^^
Good point. I tend to get a little overboard with x100 talk I know!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
On the other hand it's good to have a different view offering a camera outside the format of the particular camera being discussed!
I still want a digital full frame OM-1D!
spiderfrank
just a dreamer
The menu system of the OM-D is the same, with just more option, but the "plus" is that pressing the info button you activate a short text that explain the setting you are working on
in the OM-D you have two more gear on top of the camera, they will be aperture and speed in manual mode, or aperture/speed and light compensation in priority modes: no more button to press
imho the OM-D viewfinder is just a tad better than the VF-2. I like it, but it's not another game, if you hated the VF-2, you'll probably hate it
Here I cannot help you, I had the E-PL1 and now the OM-D, but never had that kind of problem. The "super control panel" is a great thing, and with the OM-D's touch screen it's very fast to change the camera setup, but I don't know if this can be the solution for your problems
the OM-D eye proximity sensor on the viewfinder should fix this issue ;-)
the OM-D is smaller than the E-PL1 + VF-2 combo, so no problem here
The files from the OM-D are even better than the ones from E-PL1, and the jpeg are more "tweakable" thanks to the greater DR