Slide Film, A CALL TO ARMS! : SHOOT IT OR IT WILL DIE

wilonstott said:
The more I think about it, this seems like the correct answer.

We have to support labs.
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It's more than that.

Kodak did exactly the right thing with Kodachrome, they went with a single, worldwide processing lab...Dwayne's.

The reason why was cost, which to the consumer,is price.

Right now E-6 demand falls in part because too many labs have to make up the loss of volume sales with margin increases. Too many labs pushing higher margins increases prices all over. So sales drop even more.

All this while production costs for the actual film has been relatively constant. The CAD/CAM innovations of the 1980's to present have paid off, but now production is too efficient for demand.

To get things back to equilibrium, the price needs to stabilize by reducing the # of labs worldwide and revamp the whole processing and distribution system.

I strongly suspect that Kodak looked at doing this with their chrome products before deciding to pull the plug entirely. Now it is all up to Fuji.

The problem for Fuji is they used to make a lot of their money selling mini-labs systems, for which demand has fallen off a cliff, and they now almost exclusively make dry print systems. I have a source at Fuji who informed me Fuji no longer manufactures any wet lab processing machines; the whole inventory of "new" product is inventory, kept in mothballs and salvage systems refurbished.

So, from a largely supply and demand and price economic perspective, if you want E-6 to survive, pushing Fuji to consolidate distribution and processing to stabilize prices and create a long-term plan for their film products is the most obvious solution until such a time as small run emulsion systems can be seen to be economically viable.

I'll leave driving demand for film off the shelf to others.
 
Aristophanes said:
It's more than that.

Kodak did exactly the right thing with Kodachrome, they went with a single, worldwide processing lab...Dwayne's.

The reason why was cost, which to the consumer,is price.

Right now E-6 demand falls in part because too many labs have to make up the loss of volume sales with margin increases. Too many labs pushing higher margins increases prices all over. So sales drop even more.

All this while production costs for the actual film has been relatively constant. The CAD/CAM innovations of the 1980's to present have paid off, but now production is too efficient for demand.

To get things back to equilibrium, the price needs to stabilize by reducing the # of labs worldwide and revamp the whole processing and distribution system.

I strongly suspect that Kodak looked at doing this with their chrome products before deciding to pull the plug entirely. Now it is all up to Fuji.

The problem for Fuji is they used to make a lot of their money selling mini-labs systems, for which demand has fallen off a cliff, and they now almost exclusively make dry print systems. I have a source at Fuji who informed me Fuji no longer manufactures any wet lab processing machines; the whole inventory of "new" product is inventory, kept in mothballs and salvage systems refurbished.

So, from a largely supply and demand and price economic perspective, if you want E-6 to survive, pushing Fuji to consolidate distribution and processing to stabilize prices and create a long-term plan for their film products is the most obvious solution until such a time as small run emulsion systems can be seen to be economically viable.

I'll leave driving demand for film off the shelf to others.
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Alright. All relevant points.

What does the 9-5, weekend warrior, do to help?

We need to understand that we are a small interest group, and small interest groups get things done because they are easier to control the large multi-faceted unwashed masses.

We know what we want: Slide Film

We have to increase our numbers.

Win people over to the cause.

That's why I'm linking these old NatGeo "Zoom In" bits.

They aren't nostalgia--you can still do this--it still exists.

Kodachrome was a bitter lesson.

Velvia is worth saving just as much.--Any and every slide film, really.

Maybe more so, now.
 
wilonstott said:
Alright. All relevant points.

What does the 9-5, weekend warrior, do to help?

We need to understand that we are a small interest group, and small interest groups get things done because they are easier to control the large multi-faceted unwashed masses.

We know what we want: Slide Film

We have to increase our numbers.

Win people over to the cause.
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Well, from a marketing perspective, "causes" make people jittery.

It's really about the money.

A buyer's club is ideal. Make a list of quality E-6 processors and drive biz to them. Write a letter to Fuji and ask what a consumer advocacy group can do to give E-6 a lifejacket. Coordinate with over analog forums for a consolidated approach.

Your goal is to make the E-6 product financially viable for the labs which will then stabilize prices and make it a value for what it's worth to the consumer. If too many labs chase too few customers, then prices will rise and you will have far too few consumers to keep Fuji happy.

That buys E-6 time as Kodak did with Kodachrome.
 
Dear Aristophanes,

looks like you still have not learnt your lesson by your complete failure on apug.
You don't have any knowledge about the photo industry, and people who are in the industry like Simon Galley from Ilford, Ron Mowrey etc. have several times proven you wrong there.
Don't you realize that you are completely loosing any trust by permanently repeating statements about the photo industry which are nonsense?

Aristophanes said:
This will kill E-6 faster than anything else.

There was never enough home processing to keep Jobo in biz, so nowhere near enough to keep Fuji's rollers rolling.
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Sorry, wrong.

1. Jobo ist still in business. They even have recently restarted production of their best developmet machine due to new demand.
2. If you were right with your statement that home developing is irrelevant than BW film would have died 40 years ago.
Fact is that depending on the market 90-95% of all BW films are home developed by the photographers themselves.
BW development in professional labs is a tiny niche, and that for a long time.
And the global market for BW film is even bigger than the global market for E6 film.

Nevertheless in some markets slide film is very strong. Due to official data from the German photo industry in 2010 the number of slide films sold was double the number of BW films sold in Germany.

Nevertheless I agree with you that supporting the best E6 labs is that what we should do.

Cheers, Jan
 
Aristophanes said:
Right now E-6 demand falls in part because too many labs have to make up the loss of volume sales with margin increases. Too many labs pushing higher margins increases prices all over. So sales drop even more.
Click to expand...

Prices of E6 development have been quite stable in Germany and the bigger European countries for years.
Number of labs (more than 40 + the big mass labs like CeWe, Fuji Eurocolor, Allcop, dp in Germany alone) has been stable, too.
Europe ist the biggest photo market worldwide. Europe and Japan are the regions with by far the most slide film sales.
It is not North America which is most important for slide film consumption.
In Germany you can buy slide film and development 'almost at every corner of the street' via the big drugstore chain stores.
I only have to walk 300 - 500m and can buy slide film and development at three different places; two drugstore chain shops and one photo portrait studio.

Aristophanes said:
The problem for Fuji is they used to make a lot of their money selling mini-labs systems, for which demand has fallen off a cliff, and they now almost exclusively make dry print systems.
Click to expand...

Again, wrong: Fuji makes most of it's money with RA-4 paper and chemicals. RA-4 paper is a huge mass market, primarily because the majority of digital prints are printed on silver-halide RA-4 paper by the online services, which cooperate with the big mass labs.
In Europe the consumption of RA-4 is even increasing.
You should have a look at the quarterly reports of CeWe Holding, the biggest European photo finisher. They have thousands of emplyoees and lots of mass photo labs in several European countries.
CeWe has for years now increasing sales numbers of prints (about 90% are now from digital files), which are printed on traditional RA-4 paper.
CeWe alone is making billions of RA-4 prints per year. And then you have to add all the other mass labs like Fuji Eurocolor, Allcop, dp etc.

Cheers, Jan
 
HHPhoto said:
Dear Aristophanes,

looks like you still have not learnt your lesson by your complete failure on apug.
You don't have any knowledge about the photo industry, and people who are in the industry like Simon Galley from Ilford, Ron Mowrey etc. have several times proven you wrong there.
Don't you realize that you are completely loosing any trust by permanently repeating statements about the photo industry which are nonsense?



Sorry, wrong.

1. Jobo ist still in business. They even have recently restarted production of their best developmet machine due to new demand.
2. If you were right with your statement that home developing is irrelevant than BW film would have died 40 years ago.
Fact is that depending on the market 90-95% of all BW films are home developed by the photographers themselves.
BW development in professional labs is a tiny niche, and that for a long time.
And the global market for BW film is even bigger than the global market for E6 film.

Nevertheless in some markets slide film is very strong. Due to official data from the German photo industry in 2010 the number of slide films sold was double the number of BW films sold in Germany.

Nevertheless I agree with you that supporting the best E6 labs is that what we should do.

Cheers, Jan
Click to expand...


Jan,

Great info here, man.

I'm really glad to hear that Deutschland is pulling their weight as far as E-6 is going.

Remember, lets keep this postive--I'm getting pumped up, man.

No arguments--only contributions.

Consider the way you frame your discourse, and I'm not tearing you down, I'm actually thrilled at the info you brought out.

Aristophanes is thinking bigger picture, and we need that as well.

However, it's good to hear that we can still take on some of the "buy locally, think globally" mentality and process ourselves.

Perhaps the ease of home processing E-6 is something that needs more visibility as well.

Before reading about it, I assumed it was terrifically complicated, and that simply isn't the case.

Home developers need to know this as well.

Demand for film and chemicals are demand for film and chemicals.

Big labs need our business too.

I said it before--why can't we have both?

When I talked to Precision, they said that they were most likely going to offer black and white processing with their existing E-6 equipment.

Of course, they'd be locked into one developer if they did this.

Awareness is a huge issue right now.

We forget about it.

We don't use it.

We grab Portra or Ektar.

Grab Provia or Velvia instead.

Show others what the possibilities are.

You'll be glad you did, and when they get their first batch back, they'll be sold on it.
 
I suppose I feel like it adds more weight to what I'm saying.

I find myself glossing over long unbroken paragraphs.

What's your favorite slide film, Stewart?
 
Favourite? CT18, but that probably dates me a bit; I'm happy to use colour neg these days I don't see the point of slide film unless one is projecting it, and I don't ... anyway it's always been a pain to expose
 
Sparrow said:
Favourite? CT18, but that probably dates me a bit; I'm happy to use colour neg these days I don't see the point of slide film unless one is projecting it, and I don't ... anyway it's always been a pain to expose
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You illustrate the problem perfectly.

I challenge you to order a few rolls and give it another try.

I know you can't get Agfa stuff anymore, but try something from Fuji.

You'll be glad you did.
 
I've been planning the use of slide film during the summer over the last few months. It's finally gotten sunny enough here in Oregon to get started!

As an aside, I bought www.summerofslides.com a few months back. Seeing this thread and a very similar one in the I shoot film group on flickr makes me want to put it to use!
 
wilonstott said:
You illustrate the problem perfectly.

I challenge you to order a few rolls and give it another try.

I know you can't get Agfa stuff anymore, but try something from Fuji.

You'll be glad you did.
Click to expand...

I have box after box of slides if I need to remind myself what they are like, many of them in triplicate because they are such a bugger to expose properly.

Do you have a projector? if not, if you are viewing them on a computer monitor or digital projector what's the point? they don't look any different to c41 ... if I could still get GAF500 (the film Rembrandt used) in 120 I'd still be using it, as it is what's the advantage?
 
HHPhoto said:
Dear Aristophanes,

looks like you still have not learnt your lesson by your complete failure on apug.
You don't have any knowledge about the photo industry, and people who are in the industry like Simon Galley from Ilford, Ron Mowrey etc. have several times proven you wrong there.
Don't you realize that you are completely loosing any trust by permanently repeating statements about the photo industry which are nonsense?



Sorry, wrong.

1. Jobo ist still in business. They even have recently restarted production of their best developmet machine due to new demand.
2. If you were right with your statement that home developing is irrelevant than BW film would have died 40 years ago.
Fact is that depending on the market 90-95% of all BW films are home developed by the photographers themselves.
BW development in professional labs is a tiny niche, and that for a long time.
And the global market for BW film is even bigger than the global market for E6 film.

Nevertheless in some markets slide film is very strong. Due to official data from the German photo industry in 2010 the number of slide films sold was double the number of BW films sold in Germany.

Nevertheless I agree with you that supporting the best E6 labs is that what we should do.

Cheers, Jan
Click to expand...

The rumours about Jobo are unsubstantiated. Their website shows no press releases since 2010 and no new products in the B&H catalog since then swell. They look to be a 2nd tier re-brand of digital-centric products from a Taiwan manufacturing house.

BW film has its problems as well due to loss of demand. But E-6 is substantially more expensive to manufacture and process. It requires both industrial scale manufacturing, consumptions, and processing to survive. Always did.

E-6 is now totally depended on Fuji. I used to be part of a mini-lab purchasing group (major drugstore chain) and I still have those contacts at Fuji, some of whom I was in Uni with. The entire Fuji lab sales and service groups are now mostly dry print service groups. They actually have a transition plan to move from RA papers to dry prints as part of Fuji's international transition, in part because normal 4x6 prints are being replaced by other services, like photo books. Machine wet processing ad RA printing is an endangered species, so much so that Fuji had no systems available for display and no product updates at the last Expo, and none planned for Photokina 2012.

My information comes from the NA market where the amount of sales and processing availability has gone to almost nothing in just 5 years. There used to be photofinishing services available in 99% of service areas just 5 years ago (CAN,US, MEX) covering almost 400 million people, and now the outlook is a walk-in availability of less than 20 million people within the next 2 years. That's what I've been told.

To keep E-6 going, you need to consolidate demand and processing and amortize existing capital as long as possible. That means less labs driving up prices, and mail order to achieve economy of scale. You still need labs or E-6 dies; the question is, which labs and at what cost? As high-quality as E-6 provides, it loses to digital if it is substantially more expensive and cannot translate well into other mediums through scanning. To get those ancillary services, cost will be the major factor. The nice thing about the 'net is you can organize systems to drive product to the most efficient processors and make a business case. Right now, the old drugstore buy-and-process model is actually dragging the whole film edifice down. As a guy who spent years working in that system where I signed the purchase orders for mini-labs, that's the perspective I bring. Good luck.
 
Alright, American, European, and Asian markets are different.

Nothing new--but what remains is we have to support labs.

We have to shoot more slide film and send it in to have it processed.

I dropped a PM to the Precision RFF account about our discussion here and asked what it would take for them to bring e-6 back.

I haven't heard back yet.

You guys should drop them a PM as well.
 
wilonstott said:
Jan,

Great info here, man.

I'm really glad to hear that Deutschland is pulling their weight as far as E-6 is going.

Remember, lets keep this postive--I'm getting pumped up, man.

No arguments--only contributions.

Consider the way you frame your discourse, and I'm not tearing you down, I'm actually thrilled at the info you brought out.

Aristophanes is thinking bigger picture, and we need that as well.

However, it's good to hear that we can still take on some of the "buy locally, think globally" mentality and process ourselves.

Perhaps the ease of home processing E-6 is something that needs more visibility as well.

Before reading about it, I assumed it was terrifically complicated, and that simply isn't the case.

Home developers need to know this as well.

Demand for film and chemicals are demand for film and chemicals.

Big labs need our business too.

I said it before--why can't we have both?
Click to expand...

You're right, I completely agree.
Of course we can have both, home developing (for those who have fun with it, or want the control by themselves, E6 can be done at home, but you have to be more precise with the temperature as with C-41,which is a little bit more tolerant) and good professional labs.
If I shoot slide film and do home developing with Fuji or Tetenal E6 chemicals, than that is the same demand for slide film and E6 chemicals as when I shoot slide film and send it to a professional lab (in this case the demand comes from the lab).

Cheers, Jan
 
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