pb908
Well-known
here's my story. I didn't have any tlr up to last week when i get what i believe a good deal in local forum, a yashica 12 for cheap price.
Unfortunately it is as is condition, when it arrived, i noticed that the shutter slow to open up, this i believe will make the speed slower than it should be.
To make it short story, i disassembled it for flood cleaning the shutter, but by mistake i broke the screw holding the cocking mechanism (try to loosen it up). At the end, the camera may become piece of junk if i can't find another yashinon to replace it.
Wait,suddenly an idea coming to my head. Why it need to be a yashinon?
Yashica tlr has the front plate move forward & backward during focussing. As long as i replace the taking lens with the same 80mm lens, it should be working, right? It may need extra shimming, may loose cocking automation, ease of use speed/aperture selector, & may need to redesign how the shutter button be pressed, but i can get extra benefit of having nice taking lens.
What i mean nice is the premium one such a opton tessar 80mm f2.8 from zeiss folder, a planar 80mm f2 from flex, or even a mamiya 80mm f2 tlr can be installed.
What do you think of this frankenstein tlr idea?
Unfortunately it is as is condition, when it arrived, i noticed that the shutter slow to open up, this i believe will make the speed slower than it should be.
To make it short story, i disassembled it for flood cleaning the shutter, but by mistake i broke the screw holding the cocking mechanism (try to loosen it up). At the end, the camera may become piece of junk if i can't find another yashinon to replace it.
Wait,suddenly an idea coming to my head. Why it need to be a yashinon?
Yashica tlr has the front plate move forward & backward during focussing. As long as i replace the taking lens with the same 80mm lens, it should be working, right? It may need extra shimming, may loose cocking automation, ease of use speed/aperture selector, & may need to redesign how the shutter button be pressed, but i can get extra benefit of having nice taking lens.
What i mean nice is the premium one such a opton tessar 80mm f2.8 from zeiss folder, a planar 80mm f2 from flex, or even a mamiya 80mm f2 tlr can be installed.
What do you think of this frankenstein tlr idea?
Dan Daniel
Well-known
I did something like this on an Autocrd. Installed a Compur shutter and pre-WWII Zeiss Tessar 75mm-
Turns out that I could get the shutter release on the new shutter to line up with the Autocord's release mechanism. And the wind system stillworked- no double/no exposure prevention interlock, but it wound individual frames and the counter worked.
The lenses you mention all use larger shutters than either the Autocord or the Yashica-Mat/12. And the felt light trap seal on the Yashica's body might present some problems; the Autocord's light trap comes from the focus helical block, as I remember, so it's simpler to work with.
Some day I may mount a 75mm 3.5 Xenotar or Planar lens on an Autcord body and get my perfect camera- great focusing system and lens I like more than the Rokkor.
I'm a bit confused by what screw you can break to ruin the cocking mechanism on a Yashica.
Turns out that I could get the shutter release on the new shutter to line up with the Autocord's release mechanism. And the wind system stillworked- no double/no exposure prevention interlock, but it wound individual frames and the counter worked.
The lenses you mention all use larger shutters than either the Autocord or the Yashica-Mat/12. And the felt light trap seal on the Yashica's body might present some problems; the Autocord's light trap comes from the focus helical block, as I remember, so it's simpler to work with.
Some day I may mount a 75mm 3.5 Xenotar or Planar lens on an Autcord body and get my perfect camera- great focusing system and lens I like more than the Rokkor.
I'm a bit confused by what screw you can break to ruin the cocking mechanism on a Yashica.
BobYIL
Well-known
I say go for it with caution.. In the 60s I used a Yashica 124G with the Yashinon 3.5 lens, a Tessar formula undoubtedly. To align the new lens could be an issue (more than centering it with the axis of the film) and you would need a 75mm lens like the viewing one to couple the same FL movements (80mm how to couple ?!?! ). A ground glass on the film plane with watchmakers loupe could be required for exact axial positioning (radial is no big deal). A real tough job though..
BTW, I see M2-T, meaning the Nikon F shutter curtains fit in the M2? (You did not update that project.. )
pb908
Well-known
my yashica tlr use 80mm lens, so i need to hunt for 80mm lens. A mamiya, i believe is the cheapest i can buy, as they are a module. Worst case scnario, i may just replace the whole front plate module with it. Hopefully it its workable.
Regarding my leica-t, yes a nikon f/f2 curain fit directly. I have made m3-t, m2-t, and iiic-t, and black painted them. I don't really like m3, so i let it go to a friend. Still have m2 & iiic, last week i finished my frankenstein iiic-t bp by adding self timer from a junk iiif bd st. Now it become a camera that should never been exist, iiic-t bp st
i didn't continue the thread about it, for a reason that i hope only challenged people will get the idea and try it, once they get the same picture/view with me, i have no problem sharing the final clue if they contact me personally. So, here i am, with an idea stiking in my head of a new frankenstein tlr. I hope i can make it realized.
Regarding the screw that i broke, it is the screw that hold the cocking lever to the cocking mechanism. Without this screw, the cocking lever is falling out = can't be cocked at all.
Regarding my leica-t, yes a nikon f/f2 curain fit directly. I have made m3-t, m2-t, and iiic-t, and black painted them. I don't really like m3, so i let it go to a friend. Still have m2 & iiic, last week i finished my frankenstein iiic-t bp by adding self timer from a junk iiif bd st. Now it become a camera that should never been exist, iiic-t bp st
i didn't continue the thread about it, for a reason that i hope only challenged people will get the idea and try it, once they get the same picture/view with me, i have no problem sharing the final clue if they contact me personally. So, here i am, with an idea stiking in my head of a new frankenstein tlr. I hope i can make it realized.
Regarding the screw that i broke, it is the screw that hold the cocking lever to the cocking mechanism. Without this screw, the cocking lever is falling out = can't be cocked at all.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
I've been contemplating a Mamiya 55mm on a similar body, as a sort of Frankensteined TLR to use with my Rolleiflexes 2.8f and Tele.
I'm interested to read about your experiences with the Yashica body.
I'm interested to read about your experiences with the Yashica body.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
If you can provide a photo of what broke, I probably have an extra part and would be happy to mail it off to you.
pb908
Well-known
Dan_Daniel, thanks for being so kind,
but i'm afraid it can't be replaced as the screw broke in two, half of it left inside the hole and can't be taken out, while the other half can't bite enough. at this moment, replacing the whole shutter assy is the best way. the screw that is broken is the one i hold with the screw driver. if i remove my hand on it, it will just "pops" out as it has small spring inside to return it back to normal position.
i can use it temporary, just put the broken screw there and install the shutter assy cover on top of it. the area of the cover helps the screw to be there on it's place, until i reach speed 1/250s when the cover have opening area. but doing this way, sometimes the cocking lever wiggles a little bit and failure to pull the cocking pin fully , just sometimes, not really a reliable solution.
regarding the larger shutter, do you have any clue how big is the OD (outside diameter) of the mamiya shutter back screw (to mount it on the plate)? on my yashica, the yashinon f3.5 has around 24mm OD ( less than 1 inch) screw for the mounting plate. let me know if you have clue, if the mamiya is too big, i may need to make bigger mounting hole, or change entire plate, or maybe change the idea and use tessar/planar.
but i'm afraid it can't be replaced as the screw broke in two, half of it left inside the hole and can't be taken out, while the other half can't bite enough. at this moment, replacing the whole shutter assy is the best way. the screw that is broken is the one i hold with the screw driver. if i remove my hand on it, it will just "pops" out as it has small spring inside to return it back to normal position.
i can use it temporary, just put the broken screw there and install the shutter assy cover on top of it. the area of the cover helps the screw to be there on it's place, until i reach speed 1/250s when the cover have opening area. but doing this way, sometimes the cocking lever wiggles a little bit and failure to pull the cocking pin fully , just sometimes, not really a reliable solution.
regarding the larger shutter, do you have any clue how big is the OD (outside diameter) of the mamiya shutter back screw (to mount it on the plate)? on my yashica, the yashinon f3.5 has around 24mm OD ( less than 1 inch) screw for the mounting plate. let me know if you have clue, if the mamiya is too big, i may need to make bigger mounting hole, or change entire plate, or maybe change the idea and use tessar/planar.
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Dan Daniel
Well-known
Take a sewing needle and see if you can walk that broken-off screw part out of the threads. A little oil, let sit, then use the needle off-center and try to rotate it out. Sometimes it works, sometimes not!
Pretty well any Copal shutter from a Yashica TLR can be used as replacement. Well, the 124/G's SV model might not. And early versions have the older shutter speed steps- 1/5, 1/10, 1/25 and such. I have found ever so slight variations in some internal parts so that pieces don't always interchange properly. A whole new shutter might be your best bet.
I would strongly encourage you to remove the shutter and look at the opening in the body to the film chamber. Remove the aluminum 'pan' that sits on the camera body and see the felt light trap and its locating groove. You will need to replicate something like this for any new shutter you install. One model of Rolleiflex uses a small bag-bellow to form a seal- one approach.
The shutter size is usually called #00 if you are looking around. Best as I remember, Compur and Copal used the same threading. Not sure about Seikosha.
I guess the Mamiya 55mm has some retro-focus design or whatever it is called to allow it to sit at the same place as the 80mm? That could be interesting- a cheap Rolleiflex FW!
Pretty well any Copal shutter from a Yashica TLR can be used as replacement. Well, the 124/G's SV model might not. And early versions have the older shutter speed steps- 1/5, 1/10, 1/25 and such. I have found ever so slight variations in some internal parts so that pieces don't always interchange properly. A whole new shutter might be your best bet.
I would strongly encourage you to remove the shutter and look at the opening in the body to the film chamber. Remove the aluminum 'pan' that sits on the camera body and see the felt light trap and its locating groove. You will need to replicate something like this for any new shutter you install. One model of Rolleiflex uses a small bag-bellow to form a seal- one approach.
The shutter size is usually called #00 if you are looking around. Best as I remember, Compur and Copal used the same threading. Not sure about Seikosha.
I guess the Mamiya 55mm has some retro-focus design or whatever it is called to allow it to sit at the same place as the 80mm? That could be interesting- a cheap Rolleiflex FW!
Mudman
Well-known
Can't you ream the screw out and retap the threads?
pb908
Well-known
@Mudman, the hole is so small. better just look for another shutter assy.
@Dan_Daniel,i have tried with small needle screw driver, it won't move.
i just read into this nice website talking about shutter size.
http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/to-lensboard
i believe yashica is #00 size while as per what i read from C330 user manual, 80mm lens is #0 size.
http://www.propellerheads.com/technical/c330s/mamiyac330manual.pdf
maybe a vintage zeiss ikonta lens worth a try..
@Dan_Daniel,i have tried with small needle screw driver, it won't move.
i just read into this nice website talking about shutter size.
http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/to-lensboard
i believe yashica is #00 size while as per what i read from C330 user manual, 80mm lens is #0 size.
http://www.propellerheads.com/technical/c330s/mamiyac330manual.pdf
maybe a vintage zeiss ikonta lens worth a try..
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
The Mamiya is basically a miniaturized LF lens. The front and rear elements simply thread off the shutter. The shutter is held against the lens board with a single retaining ring that has notches.
Threading the elements off, and removing the retaining ring only additionally requires the unsolder the flash sync and the whole lens is free.
Refitting would require some paper shims, both levers for arming the shutter and the release are on the shutter assembly so it doesn't need any coupling, linking etc. Easy as pie.
I'm hoping to use a 55mm to create that Frankenflex FW, or else a 65mm.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
Try an actual sewing needle. I think that the small contact area makes a difference. You trying to spin with no downward pressure- not easy! But usually a broken screw will have a rough surface that gives some bite at certain spots.
Well, I've had this work once and I've had it not work twice!
I checked the back retaining ring/barrel from a Yashica-Mat on a Compur shutter from a pre-WWII Ikonta- same threading.
Well, I've had this work once and I've had it not work twice!
I checked the back retaining ring/barrel from a Yashica-Mat on a Compur shutter from a pre-WWII Ikonta- same threading.
pb908
Well-known
Nice info,
but my yashinon is using 80mm, and most ikonta use 75mm except the high level one (high priced as well). assuming i can get 75mm opton tessar or similar for the taking lens, i think i need to get 75mm for the viewing lens (and cross the finger for the mount plate of yashica to be deep enough for the lens to focus infinity).
things are getting complicated but interesting..can't shutdown the idea yet..
pb908
Well-known
The Mamiya is basically a miniaturized LF lens. The front and rear elements simply thread off the shutter. The shutter is held against the lens board with a single retaining ring that has notches.
Threading the elements off, and removing the retaining ring only additionally requires the unsolder the flash sync and the whole lens is free.
Refitting would require some paper shims, both levers for arming the shutter and the release are on the shutter assembly so it doesn't need any coupling, linking etc. Easy as pie.
I'm hoping to use a 55mm to create that Frankenflex FW, or else a 65mm.
go for it !!! and let us know the result.
i was thinking the same after seeing the mamiya lens assembly. it should be easy to be dismounted, but to mount it to another TLR another story.
do you know if 55 or 65 have the same minimum plate distance to film plane compare to 80mm (for infinity focus). if this is the same, then your Frankenflex FW should closer become reality, just need to make the flex mounting hole bigger, and try to find a way to block the light behind it.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
You seem to talk about the replacement of the lens, while you mean replacing the whole shutter+lens assy.
I expect mechanical compatibility problems if you go for a completely different tlr. But you might maybe easily swap the shutter from a cheaper yashica model with the yashicor or a model with broken/messed up lens, and keep your yashinon.
To answer your questions in detail, not all 75mm lenses are exactly 75mm (actually none of them). Even from tessar to tessar they are a bit different (that's why they did cherry-picking at manufacture: they picked the viewing lens that matched the most a certain taking lens, and used them on the same body. Or so the legend says.)
Yes, you might need some shimming for focus tracking. You will also need to re-position the viewing lens for the same reason (which is actually pretty easy on the tlrs i looked into - yashica D, rolleiflex - .
In principle, you can also interchange shutters with lenses if you are a handy person, but some might simply not fit in.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
OK, now after posting i've also ready the replies, and i see you are not a beginner i apologize for my naive "advice".
Sounds like you know what you are doing and you will probably pull it off.
What worked for me sometimes is to dip the screwdriver tip (or a simple thin metal rod with a perpendicular, not pointy, end) into superglue, just a wee little bit, and push it against the broken screw leftovers. Keep it fixed for some seconds and rotate...voila!
Obviously the process is risky, since if you put too much superglue on it, might glue the screw very efficiently into the hole...
And yes you need to use some lubricant before screwing.
i apologize for my naive "advice".Sounds like you know what you are doing and you will probably pull it off.
What worked for me sometimes is to dip the screwdriver tip (or a simple thin metal rod with a perpendicular, not pointy, end) into superglue, just a wee little bit, and push it against the broken screw leftovers. Keep it fixed for some seconds and rotate...voila!
Obviously the process is risky, since if you put too much superglue on it, might glue the screw very efficiently into the hole...
And yes you need to use some lubricant before screwing.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Can you sink it deep enough for infinity? or a Frankenflex FW Macro is the plan?I'm hoping to use a 55mm to create that Frankenflex FW, or else a 65mm.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Can you sink it deep enough for infinity? or a Frankenflex FW Macro is the plan?
Not sure yet. Don't have a Mamiya TLR at hand at the moment so I do not know what the minimum focusing distance should be to reach infinity. I've had Mamiyas before though and since the bodies aren't exactly small (my main reason to have the 55mm or 65mm on another body) I suppose the minimum focus distance would be quite deep anyway.
Had a reply from a seller who's offering a perfectly fine Beautyflex model D for EUR 17,50 so the first part is accomplished...
Anybody got a Mamiya 55mm or 65mm to spare? Sometimes these have separation, I don't mind that, it keeps the price low
It needs to have a good working shutter though, I'm not up to fine mechanics...pb908
Well-known
hey buzzardkid.
i have check several picture from ebay auction (specially the one having 65mm lens and 55mm lens). here are my findings.
65mm have infinity focus distance the same as 80mm (see picture below, on C330 distance scale). Normal position of the plate is not fully recessed (see the infinity mark vs the screw point on it's upper left bar)
while for 65mm vs 55mm, the 55mm will have the plane recessed deeper. see below for the 2 scale. see the infinity is close to the screw point
so 65mm, is workable, but 55mm, maybe not.. unless you find a way to sink it inside.
i have check several picture from ebay auction (specially the one having 65mm lens and 55mm lens). here are my findings.
65mm have infinity focus distance the same as 80mm (see picture below, on C330 distance scale). Normal position of the plate is not fully recessed (see the infinity mark vs the screw point on it's upper left bar)
while for 65mm vs 55mm, the 55mm will have the plane recessed deeper. see below for the 2 scale. see the infinity is close to the screw point
so 65mm, is workable, but 55mm, maybe not.. unless you find a way to sink it inside.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Smart thinking, to compare the index markings on the cameras!
A 65 will be my main target to find.
Saw a nice Rolleiflex FW for sale (already reserved...) in NL, would likely have cost an arm and a leg...
A 65 will be my main target to find.
Saw a nice Rolleiflex FW for sale (already reserved...) in NL, would likely have cost an arm and a leg...