Help a medium format newbie please

[defektive]

Hi Guys,
I am considering purchasing a Mamiya 645 pro from Keh but need some help determining the pieces I need as they all seem to be sold separately and this is my first foray into medium format. I have seen the following listed:
Bodies
Power drives
Prisms
Focussing screens
120/220 film backs
120/220 inserts
Back shells

Do I need all of these and is there anything I have missed? I have read of dark slides elsewhere but there is no mention of this on Keh, is it the same as a back shell? Can someone explain how the backs/inserts/back shells/dark slides work together please?

Cheers

 

[Roger Hicks]

Body will normally come with a screen (but check) and may or may not come with prism

Complete back is shell (outer), insert (inner), dark-slide (blocks light for changing)

Winder/drive is optional extra

At least, that's how I'd read it. Haven't used Mamiya 645s for years.

Cheers,

R.

 

[kmallick]

Yes that seems like all the components that you need. I am assuming you will get a lens too. 🙂
My advice would be to get a complete set and not buy them in pieces. The M645 system is very reasonable these days in the used market. Most often you will find that you can buy the complete system in kit form cheaper than what you pay for if you buy the pieces individually (even from KEH).

Good luck with your new chapter...

 

[mike rosenlof]

Hi Guys,
I am considering purchasing a Mamiya 645 pro from Keh but need some help determining the pieces I need as they all seem to be sold separately and this is my first foray into medium format. I have seen the following listed:
Bodies
Power drives
Prisms
Focussing screens
120/220 film backs
120/220 inserts
Back shells

Do I need all of these and is there anything I have missed? I have read of dark slides elsewhere but there is no mention of this on Keh, is it the same as a back shell? Can someone explain how the backs/inserts/back shells/dark slides work together please?

Cheers

I believe some of the Mamiya 645 cameras did not have removable backs, but had inserts. I believe the Pro does have removable backs. A complete film back should include the darkslide.

Looking at the KEH page, all the M645 bodies are shown with a screen in place but no finder or back (if removable). So I think you're going to want at the minimum.

Body
Back
Prism or other viewfinder.
Lens.

My Mamiya cameras are all TLRs so I could be wrong here, but I've poked around their SLR stuff a bit.

 

[Spanik]

M645, M645'1000 M645J etc do not have a removable back and take different prisms/viewfinders and winders than the M645 super, pro and proTL.

The M645 Super, Pro and ProTL take the same backs, prisms and grips between them.

The M645e has a fixed back and viewfinder and a special winder but takes the same insert as all others.

All take all lenses and film inserts (120 and 220) (AFAIK)

For a M645Pro you will need at least a back with insert, a viewfinder or prism, a winder (manual or motor) and a lens. also a battery (4LR44). Best get a kit to make sure you have everything. Make sure the back comes with a darkslide.

 

[thegman]

Perhaps email KEH and ask them to put together a starter kit for you, maybe even get a better price than buying all the bits separately.

 

[kuzano]

No Roll film emulsions in 220 any more

No Roll film emulsions in 220 any more

At least I think that is so... don't buy a 220 back or insert until you know for sure.

REMEMBER... NO OR VERY LOW VARIETY OF 220 FILM EMULSIONS... DON'T BUY 220 BACKS, UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO BUY USED/DATED FILM IN 220 FROM EBAY OR OTHER THIRD PARTIES. I GET MOST OF MY FILM FROM EBAY, AND WHILE MOST IS DATED, I ALWAYS STICK WITH SELLERS THAT HAVE CONSIDERABLE AND 100% POSITIVE FEEDBACK WHO STORE THEIR FILM COLD OR FROZEN. I HAVE NEVER HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE ON THIS, AND I HAVE USED FILM FROM THE 90'S UP.

Early M645's, and E models only use inserts...fixed backs. Pro's use removable backs and inserts. This is primarily for midroll film changes, and I hardly ever did that, so one back/insert combo was sufficient for my uses.

Be sure to look at the plastic front piece on any backs you buy. This was a VERY weak point on the removable backs and many of them have serious and many cracks. Sometimes, pieces are even missing. If you deal with KEH make this a very specific talking point. Ask for closeup front pics of any Mamiya 645 backs you buy from private parties.

I used to be able to get the new part for the front piece from MAC group who used to be the Mamiya distributor in the USA. However the last time I did that was probably 7-8 years ago. It was NOS then (new old stock) and came with new screws.

Viewfinders come in three styles:

Straight prism... low cost
Metered prism... with Mamiya about 2 or 3 variations or evolutions
Waist level finder... where you lift a lid and look down into the camera to compose. With the waist level viewer, Everything is upside down and moves backward as you swing the camera. Least expensive and some people say easier to compose on????

You need a body
A w120 back and insert
A viewfinder choice... I used straight prisms, because I use a hand held meter for metering. Never found a metered prism with out issues... Others may feel otherwise.
A lens... There is actually (long search) a very fast normal prime that is either a 1.8 or 1.9 aperture... spendy.

That's all you actually need.

A powerwinder for these cameras chewS up AA batteries as fast as old Sony Walkmans used to do so.

However, if you do not get the power winder, make sure to get the manual crank that winds the film on. The manual winder attaches to the body and comes off to allow the power winder to attach. Thus many bodies that had power winders attached have lost their original manual wind button.

I used the power winder until I realized I was going to have to buy stock in one of the battery companies that produce AA batteries used strictly in the winder.

Great camera... if you don't get a PRO... and you see a Mamiya Super RUN!!! do not walk away... bad electronics for the shutter on the SUPER only. All the 645 Mamiyas before, and after the Super were excellen... the PRO, the E, The TTl.

Good news, there are lots of lenses available because all the Mamiya lenses from the older 645s up to the TTL (possibly including) fit the PRO bodies. I recall that the AFD model (Auto focus) was a lens mount change.???

Last redundant comment (I do redundant well)..
Avoid the SUPER like the plague. Personal experience multiple on this.

 

[ruby.monkey]

One thing I'd suggest with the 645 Pro is to add the matching left-hand flash grip. The body's shutter release button is surrounded by a deep locking collar, making it very difficult to achieve a smooth press. The grip is light and shouldn't cost too much (mine, new-in-box, cost just over £30).

Lens-wise, 45mm f/2.8, 80mm f/2.8, and 150mm f/3.5, will give you a good range of fine glass without breaking the bank. The 80mm f/2.8 is available for pennies and makes an excellent general-purpose lens.

 

[Spanik]

This is primarily for midroll film changes, and I hardly ever did that, so one back/insert combo was sufficient for my uses.

It is useful altough I rarely change backs these days. One use is to have colour and b&w going at the same time, or different iso. Or just 2 of the same film so you can change faster.

BTW, the shell of all backs is the same, only the insert determines if it is 120 or 220.

There is also a 135 back and polaroid back. The first is rather rare (and needs the coresponding screen to be useful) the latter easy to find but not much useful.

A powerwinder for these cameras chewS up AA batteries as fast as old Sony Walkmans used to do so.

Depends on the winder. Keeping to the Super/Pro/ProTL series as this is the askers interest, there are 2 common winders: WG401 and WG402.

The WG402 (according to the manual only for the Pro, but I use one on my ProTL without issues) is only a basic winder and uses a 2CR5. I have about 2 years usage out of a single battery (50-60 films). Should do 130 films according to the manual. Winds a single frame after each shot.

The WG401 is more advanced. It uses 4x AA batteries. Apart from single shot it can also run "continously" at 1 frame/second. But it is also the only winder that can automate the L/N lenses. It can arm the leaf shutter in the 55/70/80/135 leaf shutter lenses. Should do 80 films according to the manual.

Good news, there are lots of lenses available because all the Mamiya lenses from the older 645s up to the TTL (possibly including) fit the PRO bodies. I recall that the AFD model (Auto focus) was a lens mount change.???

That was my understanding as well: all manual lenses fit all M645 up to and including ProTL. AFAIK the manual lenses are also usable on the AF versions. The mount is the same but contacts added. No idea how metering works in this case.

 

[Spanik]

One thing I'd suggest with the 645 Pro is to add the matching left-hand flash grip.

Beware with lefthanded grip: make sure you got the version for your type of camera! It isn't exchangable between Super, Pro and ProTL. Each version has a different "terminal adaptor"!

As for lenses, the suggestion by RubyMonkey is fine. Got the same set when I bought mine.

 

[defektive]

Wow! You people have gone above and beyond the call with your replies, thank you very much.

A couple more questions:
Is there any difference between the TL and standard versions of the pro apart from flash TTL metering?
Is the camera easy to use/hand hold if it only has a manual winder rather than a motor winder?

I thought I might plonk a 80/1.9 lens on it to start with, that looks like fun. Is there much difference (apart from cost) between the N and C versions of this lens?

 

[venchka]

Did you want manual or autofocusing?

Clicking the manual focus link at KEH and then clicking the Camera Oufits link we get a pair of 645E (Educational-no frills) cameras complete and ready to go.

http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Medium-Format/system-Mamiya-645-Manual-Focus/category-Camera-Outfits?s=1&bcode=MS&ccode=1&cc=80208&r=WG&f

Backing up and clicking on the Auto Focus link we get...

Yikes. One camera. Going back to the manual focus cameras, I see what you mean. A smorgasbord of do it yourself camera assembly.

I guess KEH makes more money parting out the complete cameras they buy. Did you check the For Sale ads here? I have always gotten better stuff at better prices from really nice folks at forums like this one.

Wayne

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I've used the Mamiya 645 Super (very similar to the Pro, the Super was replaced in the line by the pro) since I was 18. Its a great system, which I have done some incredible work with.

Here's what you need:

-The camera body

-Film back. The pro works with both the Super and Pro backs, the differences are cosmetic, but the backs are so cheap, you might as well get the ones made for the Pro.

-Finder. You want a prism, a waist level finder sucks for 645 because its hard to use for verticle shots. There is a metered prism offering both spot and centerweighted meter, for both manual and aperture priority auto. If you only use handheld meters, there's a non-metered plain prism. I have the plain because the meter one was very expensive new, but used ones are super-cheap. Plain prisms from the super work on the pro, but the pro requires the pro metered prism if you want a meter. The Super meter prism won't work on the pro.

-Lens. The 80mm f2.8 is the normal, and there's a fairly rare f1.8 version, which I have and love. The Mamiya-Sekor N lenses are the latest lens series for the 645.

-Winder. The wind crank the body comes with is fine for tripod use, but handholding these cameras is a bitch without the winder, which forms a nice grip and makes the camera handle much like a 35mm SLR. You'll need the winder grip made for the Pro; I do not think the Winder N (made for the Super) works on the pro.

That's all you need!

 

[kuzano]

I've used the Mamiya 645 Super (very similar to the Pro, the Super was replaced in the line by the pro) since I was 18. Its a great system, which I have done some incredible work with.

Chris, apologies if you like. It may have seemed like I implied all Supers were bad, and that was not my mission in the statement. Supers were not ALL bad, just most of them. I had the shutter electronics failure on two out of the three Super's I owned, so for me that's a 66% failure rate, and I did use Supers for a fairly long time.

In fact, one of them waited to fail on me until I sold it to a Seattletonian. I had to call my japanese camera connection guy in Japan, and he sold me a very nice PRO which I then sent to the Seattle guy... (very pleased result). It ended up costing me an extra $100 to fix the problem.

Never been a fan of the SUPER since, although over time I captured some very nice images with them.

I eventually switched my preference in 645 to Bronica ETRSi for a few reasons:
Equivalent glass
A bit smaller and a little easier to pack.
Tons more inventory in the used market
Leaf shutters in every lens.
Due to a strong market inventory, cheaper to acquire than Mamiya
More metered prism options
And LAST the nail in the coffin. I did find and buy the 135W back that shoots 35mm film in a 24x56mm panorama. Expensive back but about 1/10th the cost of an X-pan camera and offering lens selection change while shooting midroll.

Shot ETRSi for some time and bolstered that with my best 645 find... The Fujifilm GA645Zi... many great features in one sturdy reliable camera. Zoom 55-90, Accurate AF and Metering. Downside, not a really fast aperture lens... f3.5??

I started out with Mamiya and was almost always satisfied...(remember the Super), but the Bronica AND that 135W pano film back swayed me, and the Zi was like having a good orgasm at the end of a long fun run.

 

[jwc57]

Interesting read.

I am making the switch from a Pentax 645MF to Mamiya 645AFD....probably Monday.

There were a couple of really tempting Mamiyas in the classifieds here, but my local camera store took two AFDs, three backs, two lenses, two Custom Brackets, and a Metz Mecablitz on trade and I don't think I can get a better deal. It it wasn't for that, I'd be buying from here. The wife isn't happy though.

For film, I'll probably be moving completely to medium format and away from 35mm.

I admit though, the Pentax is a hard camera to let go of.

 

[Pirate]

Here is the manual for the 645 Pro. Read it and see all the parts so you will know what you need and how it all works:

http://www.cameramanuals.org/mamiya_pdf/mamiya_645_pro.pdf

 

[defektive]

I had almost decided on going MF due to the cost and weight saving but have realized that the 645AF is not much more than a 645 Pro once you piece it all together. Has anyone had experience, good or bad, with the 645AF?

 

[defektive]

Thank you all for your help, I just bought the following package. Fingers crossed that it is as good as it looks!
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mamiya-6...ILM_CAMERAS&hash=item35bf71fac2#ht_1304wt_957