FrankS
Registered User
Chance, talent, and diligence. The only one we have any control over is the last one.
Photosynthetech
Established
Here's a response I gave to a similar debate in another forum. Summary: It all depends on how the person learns. I think the degree in this case is less valuable than the knowledge, but as some have noted there are employers that require a degree.
"No matter what you major in, work for your student newspaper. Experience is a lot more appealing to employers than just the education. I am a Civil Engineer major working my 9th semester with my student newspaper. For me it has been more helpful than classes would have been. I'm planning on getting an engineering job, but I'm confident I could get a job at a newspaper with my experience and clippings. I do have friends in the photography program, and they enjoy it. Sometimes I notice gaps in my photo knowledge with regards to prost processing and studio lighting, but that is because I haven't taken up much interest in those things. As far a whether to major in photography, it depends on how you learn. Do you feel you need to be in a structured school environment to get the photographic knowledge you want? If I was you from what you have written, I would major in journalism and take photos for the newspaper. Then you learn how to write in class and take photos for work/hobby"
"No matter what you major in, work for your student newspaper. Experience is a lot more appealing to employers than just the education. I am a Civil Engineer major working my 9th semester with my student newspaper. For me it has been more helpful than classes would have been. I'm planning on getting an engineering job, but I'm confident I could get a job at a newspaper with my experience and clippings. I do have friends in the photography program, and they enjoy it. Sometimes I notice gaps in my photo knowledge with regards to prost processing and studio lighting, but that is because I haven't taken up much interest in those things. As far a whether to major in photography, it depends on how you learn. Do you feel you need to be in a structured school environment to get the photographic knowledge you want? If I was you from what you have written, I would major in journalism and take photos for the newspaper. Then you learn how to write in class and take photos for work/hobby"
zauhar
Veteran
A lot of interesting responses here, especially for someone who teaches college. Chris was offended by what I said, but included this in his remarks:
That is 100 % correct Chris, the college degree is an artificial barrier. At present, many are using college as a waystation, a place to hide out (and hopefully learn something) until something, anything, positive happens in our economy.
The jobs that were added in the "recovery"? According to the NYT, more than 40% were in low-wage service sectors, and I bet they are setting a pretty low bar for the "high wage" threshold.
So, that's what I meant by brainwashing - parents have been convinced to pay any price for college tuition so that their kids will have a chance at a decent life, and the kids have also bought the story. Unless there really are good jobs in the near future there will be hell to pay. A whole generation will be saddled with debt, with no career and no hope.
Randy
P.S. That high tuition does not go in the pockets of us faculty - at my school we have not had a raise in over two years (times are tough you know, be happy you have a job!) The rate is $30K at my school, and the grad students I teach get very limited direct assistance.
P.P.S Although we have no money for raises, and they are permanently closing the pool at our gym, we nonetheless have money to support an "assistant provost for enrollment management"
That is 100 % correct Chris, the college degree is an artificial barrier. At present, many are using college as a waystation, a place to hide out (and hopefully learn something) until something, anything, positive happens in our economy.
The jobs that were added in the "recovery"? According to the NYT, more than 40% were in low-wage service sectors, and I bet they are setting a pretty low bar for the "high wage" threshold.
So, that's what I meant by brainwashing - parents have been convinced to pay any price for college tuition so that their kids will have a chance at a decent life, and the kids have also bought the story. Unless there really are good jobs in the near future there will be hell to pay. A whole generation will be saddled with debt, with no career and no hope.
Randy
P.S. That high tuition does not go in the pockets of us faculty - at my school we have not had a raise in over two years (times are tough you know, be happy you have a job!) The rate is $30K at my school, and the grad students I teach get very limited direct assistance.
P.P.S Although we have no money for raises, and they are permanently closing the pool at our gym, we nonetheless have money to support an "assistant provost for enrollment management"
MikeL
Go Fish
For those interested in looking at more data, even if it counters their faith/belief:
http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/CollegeAdvantage.ExecutiveSummary.081512.pdf
Of course, fields of study do matter.
swoop
Well-known
I have an Associates Degree in Photography and a Bachelors in English. It has proved useful but I don't believe it's essential. It definitely separates you from the pack when applying for legitimate work from companies who would rather see education and experience on a resume along with a portfolio rather than someone who bought a D3, has a flickr account and says they've been taking pictures since they were 14.
zauhar
Veteran
The Georgetown study is putting the best face it can on the data. The key issue is not whether the grad has a job, but what kind of job? The study you point to mainly proves that you are better off with a college degree than not ("underemployment" of 8 % compared to 17% for HS dropouts, great!)
Field of study does matter; my students study bioinformatics, one of those "fields of the future" the press likes to highlight (human genome, personalized medicine, etc. ). Most do get jobs, although none get high-paying industry jobs at the moment - that's because a large share of industry science is being outsourced to low-wage countries with no regulations.
Potomoof, I am glad your students are getting "amazing" jobs (they still make those?)
Randy
MikeL
Go Fish
Quality experience is quality experience, however you get it. But I think it would be naive (not you swoop, other posters) to think that a college degree doesn't give you more opportunities or open more doors. Many, maybe most, that I know, are not working in the same field they got their degree in. Was the degree wasted? No, just having the degree allowed them to apply for something related enough, that they would not have had the bona fides to apply for, without the degree.
Like with grants, or with job postings with a lot of applicants, the first run through is often a 'who can we exclude' phase. The second run through is a 'who do we want' phase. Right or wrong, a college degree may keep you out of the 'exclude' phase, and allow them to honestly evaluate your experience.
MikeL
Go Fish
Maybe it is just me, but during a recession, I'll be happy with any job.
While everyone's individual experience is unique, data of a trend like the one below, is worth showing others so that they can make the best decision for themselves.
Attachments
MikeL
Go Fish
More data.
If you click on the link for the different fields, you can see subfields.
You can evaluate their methodology and where the data come from too.
georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/
If you click on the link for the different fields, you can see subfields.
You can evaluate their methodology and where the data come from too.
georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/
Jamie123
Veteran
I fully agree. I also find it funny how pay is supposed to be an adequate measure for how 'good' a career no matter the field. By this reasoning a world famous photographer making 1 million dollars a year would have a worse career than a CEO from some fairly unknown company making 1.5 million dollars a year.
ChipMcD
Well-known
I'm not sure that any jurisdiction allows potential lawyers to "read" law in a law office anymore. My grandfather did it. In my state, I think the last person allowed to do so passed the bar in 1985. Those who were trained this way spent years apprenticed to a lawyer. There were area of study requirements, but I suspect that training was spotty in many, less frequently seen areas. In practical, day to day tasks like drafting contracts and pleadings, those lawyers were much better trained than law school graduates are today. Law schools are sort of catching on to this now.
Law school is trade school. I felt like I taught myself, but I had professors to shape that somewhat and got a concentrated blast of learning, at least in substantive areas of the law, in 3 years. Basically though, you read appellate cases and figure it out for yourself. It would probably be possible to read law today, if there were very specific area coverage requirements and if law firms would cooperate to allow trainees to work at several so that the subject areas could be covered. Those who finished such training would have a true idea of what skills that traditionally are not taught are necessary.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
For me, that 'golden age' lasted from 1965 to 1985. I started it as a photographer and ended it as a programmer. Either way, people wanted to pay me well for what I would happily have done for free!
paulfish4570
Veteran
i am glad both of my sons learned quickly that college was not for them. one became an electrician, the other an HVAC installer/fixer. i imagine neither ever will be without a job just because of the "economy." people and businesses will have their air conditioning and their electric lights, short of apocalyptic meltdown. if so, both sons can fall back on their hunting/fishing/bartering skills ...
zauhar
Veteran
i am glad both of my sons learned quickly that college was not for them. one became an electrician, the other an HVAC installer/fixer. i imagine neither ever will be without a job just because of the "economy." people and businesses will have their air conditioning and their electric lights, short of apocalyptic meltdown. if so, both sons can fall back on their hunting/fishing/bartering skills ...
Paul, I have had students whose Dads were contractors. I strongly advised them to work with the old man on the weekends and keep their hand in it. That is part of the flexibility that you need to survive in these perilous times. I bet your young men will do fine.
Regarding the Georgetown study that was mentioned before, I had some idle time yesterday and looked at the charts and tables. As always, the hidden motivation in a study is found in the questions they DON'T ask. For example it reports that several hundred thousand HS graduates lost their jobs, and never got them back, while there was an increase in a couple million positions held by college grads. Sounds good for college grads - or does it?
What was not revealed was whether the JOBS originally held by the HS graduates disappeared. In other words, did all those jobs washing dishes, serving food, working in a nursing home, patrolling on security duty, go away? Or rather, with the contracting economy, does the director of Ace Security now have a choice between a HS grad who grew up in public housing and a middle class college grad? Does the the restaurant manager who used to train HS grads as servers now have highly educated college grads to choose from (hey, they know what 'fromage' is!) ?
The killer for me was the table of median salaries, which listed 'Journalist' at $50K. That tells a talented youngster that his dream job of writing for a newspaper may not make him fabulously wealthy, but might still provide a solid middle class job. I was puzzled by this datum - after all, the Philadelphia Inquirer has decimated its newsroom, newspapers across the country teeter at the edge of bankruptcy, and yet this table makes Journalist look "OK" as a potential career.
Then you look at their methodology. They lump together all workers in this category, ages 18-64, who ONLY hold a BS. For 'Journalist' that is the recipe to identify all the old hands who have hung on to the bitter end.
If you want to see the future of journalism, do a google search on "Journatic". Read it and weep.
Randy
paulfish4570
Veteran
it is sad, indeed. glad i got out, randy, when the getting was good ...
Dektol Dan
Well-known
Oh Brother!
Oh Brother!
My old man has at art degree and I have an MFA, my degrees are in fine art, photography being part of the broad major.
1.) One goes to school to get an education, not a job.
2.) One goes to school to learn history, language (terminology) and techniques of the particular craft, with photography the mechanics and chemistry as well.
3.) I am not an educated fool for living a van hand to mouth so I could afford an expensive craft and education at the same time.
4.) Self taught folks pick and choose what they like and not necessarily what they need for the broad picture. Everything in this world is connected, a formal education teaches one to connect.
5.) The joy of a formal education is hooking up with others with whom you share a common pursuit.
6.) A proper formal education given by the right folks is NEVER a waste of time or money. How you apply it is up to you.
7.) I feel confident that I more capable than any self taught photographer in this blog, and for this I thank my fantastic teachers (my father being one). I have shared in the experiences and insight of the best and I am better for it.
Oh Brother!
My old man has at art degree and I have an MFA, my degrees are in fine art, photography being part of the broad major.
1.) One goes to school to get an education, not a job.
2.) One goes to school to learn history, language (terminology) and techniques of the particular craft, with photography the mechanics and chemistry as well.
3.) I am not an educated fool for living a van hand to mouth so I could afford an expensive craft and education at the same time.
4.) Self taught folks pick and choose what they like and not necessarily what they need for the broad picture. Everything in this world is connected, a formal education teaches one to connect.
5.) The joy of a formal education is hooking up with others with whom you share a common pursuit.
6.) A proper formal education given by the right folks is NEVER a waste of time or money. How you apply it is up to you.
7.) I feel confident that I more capable than any self taught photographer in this blog, and for this I thank my fantastic teachers (my father being one). I have shared in the experiences and insight of the best and I am better for it.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
How many of us are truly 'self taught'? We all learn from other photographers, whether formally (college), semi-formally (apprentice/assistant) or informally (friends and acquaintances, and indeed books). I've learned a lot from the best, too. Just not at college.
Also, what does 'more capable' mean?
Cheers,
R.
Brucefg
Member
DominikDUK
Well-known
Education is never a bad thing. I have an art degree and a history degree and a job
I love educating myself I still go to lectures at art schools and other places.
I don't give a fig about a persons current education all I care about is wether she/he is willing to learn or not.
Art School can teach you a lot, art or photography isn't one of these things. Art schools are places for networking, getting new ideas. You learn about things you've never even considered learning about.
I loved my time in art school, I was taught how to forge steel, how to create molds, set/stage design (my major), pottery, sculpting, philosophy, how to create art with bacteria, etc... and probably the most important thing in todays art world how to talk the talk. You can be the best photographer, artist, electrician etc... if you don't talk the talk you're a nobody in some peoples opinion (personally hate it but it is a necessary evil).
Dominik
I love educating myself I still go to lectures at art schools and other places.
I don't give a fig about a persons current education all I care about is wether she/he is willing to learn or not.
Art School can teach you a lot, art or photography isn't one of these things. Art schools are places for networking, getting new ideas. You learn about things you've never even considered learning about.
I loved my time in art school, I was taught how to forge steel, how to create molds, set/stage design (my major), pottery, sculpting, philosophy, how to create art with bacteria, etc... and probably the most important thing in todays art world how to talk the talk. You can be the best photographer, artist, electrician etc... if you don't talk the talk you're a nobody in some peoples opinion (personally hate it but it is a necessary evil).
Dominik
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
What kind of art schools are these? I went to Indiana University, which is a good academic university, for my BFA. Getting into IU is fairly easy; as a state university they don't set an arbitrary number of applicants to accept, unlike schools like Yale. Staying in the art program at IU is not, however, easy. Most of my classmates dropped out because the curriculum was too demanding. The fine art program there was really an academic degree in the humanities, where you also studied art. I had to take classes in history, philosophy, literature, science, and math. They were the same classes taken by people majoring in those areas, so they were not dumbed-down for art students.