A scratched name wartime IIIc

[alphonse2501]

A leica IIIc 379074 appeared on ebay: 221128020003. At the same time I see a post war IIIc: 271008400827 has scratched name on top too. According latter seller said:

There are some light signs of use on the metal and the Leica was scratched out on the top of the camera.. this was common to avoid import duties when bringing leica's into the USA during the 1940s-1950s

I wonder is it true that G.I. or American get leica at Germany and then scratch top name when they arrived at port's custom?

 

[sevo]

I wonder is it true that G.I. or American get leica at Germany and then scratch top name when they arrived at port's custom?

Not really, at least not for duties' sake, and usually not concerning GIs, but the Brooklyn grey market camera trade. What is true that Leica USA (and the customs on their behalf) demanded that (commercially) third-party imported Leicas be defaced so that they could not be sold competitively. The same goes for other cameras (and indeed products in general) from other origins as well - any exclusively licensed US importer could have the US customs enforce his exclusive rights to the brand (not to the object itself). It probably even holds true today, unless some treaty grants free trade between the country of origin and the US.

 

[Bill58]

Not really, at least not for duties' sake, and usually not concerning GIs, but the Brooklyn grey market camera trade. What is true that Leica USA (and the customs on their behalf) demanded that (commercially) third-party imported Leicas be defaced so that they could not be sold competitively. The same goes for other cameras (and indeed products in general) from other origins as well - any exclusively licensed US importer could have the US customs enforce his exclusive rights to the brand (not to the object itself). It probably even holds true today, unless some treaty grants free trade between the country of origin and the US.

Sounds like Rolex. They have an exclusive deal w/ US Customs to inspect every Rolex imported into the USA. They get to seize/scrap every one that does not contain 100% original parts.

 

[NeeZee]

I own a IIIf that I got really cheap at a local camera dealer some years ago because of a scratched 'Leica' engraving (the collectors weren't interested) . I did some research online and found out what sevo already explained. Strange thing is, I bought mine in a camera store in Munich, Germany. Well, I guess, my camera has seen some of the world during its 60 years...

 

[3rdtrick]

When I bought my first real camera, I thought I would have it for the rest of my life and etched my SS number into the base. That was the practice at the time but would be very stupid today. I almost had to give it away on trade in. Today I would NOT buy a camera, no matter how cheap, with someone else name or numbers etched into it. UNLESS, I could trace it to the original owner and prove it was not stolen in which case it would be awesome to have a piece of known history. I one time received a lens with someones numbers and promptly returned it. No I would NOT buy the camera in that condition.
Pete

 

[alphonse2501]

There has another one Leica IIIc on bidding:

Leica IIIc 1940 Wartime w/ US Signal Corps 135mm telephoto lens War Photographer
Combat Camera gear w/ viewfinder and leather case
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221127076642

 

[Particular]

Not really, at least not for duties' sake, and usually not concerning GIs, but the Brooklyn grey market camera trade. What is true that Leica USA (and the customs on their behalf) demanded that (commercially) third-party imported Leicas be defaced so that they could not be sold competitively. The same goes for other cameras (and indeed products in general) from other origins as well - any exclusively licensed US importer could have the US customs enforce his exclusive rights to the brand (not to the object itself). It probably even holds true today, unless some treaty grants free trade between the country of origin and the US.

Thank you for clarifying this. This makes a lot of sense.
My IIIc has a scratched top as well. I had heard the GI story, but it didn't add up to me. I have my uncles rolleicord that he bought in Germany in the 50's when he was stationed there (and only shot one roll with ever!). There is a sticker on the inside that reads:

"For sale to and use by authorised U.S. Forces Exchange Patrons only".

This suggests to me that they made special versions exclusively for sale to G.I.s (it only has markings in feet, not meters). Presumably these cameras would avoid import duties when taken to the US, or at least have their duties paid before being taken to the US. The Rollei doesn't have a scratch.

 

[Thomas78]

Old Canon campera often have the "Excange Post" (red EP in diamond) marking to show that they were sold to GIs in Korea or Japan in shops for military personnel.


IMG_3996 von thomas.78 auf Flickr

 

[KoNickon]

Yes, I bought a IIIc from the daughter of the owner who brought it into the U.S. when he immigrated here from Germany in '50 or '51 -- it had the Leica script scratched down to the brass. U.S. Customs did this, apparently. Can you imagine them opening your case, seeing the Leica and watching them proceed to take a sharp object to it?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Okay, who of you guys outbid me on that scratched IIIc?! 😉

 

[jarski]

would be nice if there was some kind of database of Leica serial no's on web where stories of cameras could be posted. e.g. before selling old Leica. that way cameras story would not disappear completely when new buyer gets it from eBay and such. could be interesting reading also even if not owning some particular camera. I have no idea where my IIIG has been or who used it, but based on signs on it its definitely exposed good amounts of film in its lifetime.

 

[Tim Davis]

would be nice if there was some kind of database of Leica serial no's on web where stories of cameras could be posted. e.g. before selling old Leica. that way cameras story would not disappear completely when new buyer gets it from eBay and such. could be interesting reading also even if not owning some particular camera. I have no idea where my IIIG has been or who used it, but based on signs on it its definitely exposed good amounts of film in its lifetime.

Great idea. Why not enter your info on the LeicaWiki? There is a separate page for each camera /lens type. If you lack the time to learn how to edit the LeicaWiki (main) send your info to me and I'll do it. tdavis (Lwebmaster)
tdavis64@austin.rr.com

 

[LeicaTom]

The story about the US Customs purposely *defacing* a camera is absurd, if a US Government Office did that they would have had lawsuits by the hundreds for claims on damage, whoever told that story was twisting the truth badly......

When US Military personnel brought cameras back from overseas they had cards written up by their commander stating the equipment was acquired abroad, they DIDN'T HAVE TO *deface* a camera to bring it into the country to pass customs, the paperwork from the soliders command or the PX (Post Exchange) That sold the camera offered cards to be signed with all the serial numbers of the equipment being bought.

Many WW2 cameras have the original "bring-back" paperwork still with them, it's another item that makes cameras even more valuable.

And many people like Airline Pilots and Stewardess's back in the 1950's and 60's made small fortunes, selling Leica's and other German items on the Black/Grey market in the United States, it was impossible to stop equipment from coming in this way and STILL is for that matter.......

Many Leica's had SSN numbers engraved in them, (this was in vogue to do in the 1960's and 70's, many Vietnam era Leica's have SSN's scratched on the back of them) no one cared about collectors value back then and even returning GI's from WW2 *defaced* the German Military cameras while they didn't want to look at it.....the ones who kept the cameras intact now have nest-eggs to sell to put a down payment on a new car if they want.

Damaged Leica scripts are just plain vandalism, or often people *defacing* the original serial numbers while it's stolen.....

Anything *defaced* or damaged is just worth ground level of what a seriously poor condition camera would bring, only the very rare *verified* Nazi WW2 damaged cameras bring any sort of premium.

That camera from that auction should sell for $200 or so, it would make a very good shooting Leica if it's in working order............also a good basis for a Black Paint camera if someone wants to try that?

Tom

 

[KoNickon]

Just recounting what the seller told me. She was most definitely not a collector; was passing along what her father (long deceased) had told her. Youxin Ye gave the camera a new beam splitter and shutter curtains, and he had heard of this practice.

 

[jarski]

Great idea. Why not enter your info on the LeicaWiki? There is a separate page for each camera /lens type. If you lack the time to learn how to edit the LeicaWiki (main) send your info to me and I'll do it. tdavis (Lwebmaster)
tdavis64@austin.rr.com

thx for help 🙂 my problem is that I dont know much about my camera history, wish I did. but others here may have e.g. family cameras and know decades of the history where the camera has been. they should consider writing it down, especially if thinking of selling to some stranger in web.

 

[sevo]

The story about the US Customs purposely *defacing* a camera is absurd, if a US Government Office did that they would have had lawsuits by the hundreds for claims on damage, whoever told that story was twisting the truth badly......

It was not the US Customs defacing the cameras, but the (non-official) importers had to do it themselves (usually in some temporary harbour or airport shed), if they wanted to get their (grey market) merchandise into the country even though the exclusive importer (and owner of the brand rights in the US) had authorized the Customs authorities to stop all illegal imports.

And it was not limited to Leica - most dramatically hit were Exaktas (where legal battles about the privilege to name an exclusive US dealer raged between the GDR foreign trade organisation and the Dutch company owner), and defaced grey market Pentax aren't rare either (due to Honeywell putting their foot on the previously independent Asahi Pentax dealership after they had secured an exclusive contract).

When US Military personnel brought cameras back from overseas they had cards written up by their commander stating the equipment was acquired abroad, they DIDN'T HAVE TO *deface* a camera to bring it into the country to pass customs,

Really? This would mean that the requirement to deface foreign-bought cameras extended to individuals, something I never heard about except of from pros - but people travelling with several cameras arguably could be mistaken for dealers...

 

[LeicaTom]

The whole direction of where this story is going is misleading, there's not thousands of defaced Leica's out there with the Leica script purposelessly taken off to smuggle them into a country, also a scratched or damaged camera wouldn't bring $$$$ anything on the Black/Grey market, these cameras were individual circumstances of vandalized cameras that's all........

And back in the old days as is now, US servicemen and women ALWAYS run around with more than one camera around their neck, it was the Military members who could afford expensive German and Japanese cameras in the first place, they didn't have to damage their cameras to import them, I had paperwork signed on all my gear before I left Germany and didn't pay a cent in import taxes, (and I came home with more than 6 cameras and at least 10 or 12 lenses).
The Japanese companies added the <EP> Exchange Post symbols to their equipment from 1950 till the early 1970's for Servicemen returning from Asia, together with paperwork, they too didn't have to *deface* their cameras to bring them home.

I think that the amount of "mint condition" or non-defaced smuggled Grey/Black Market cameras from the 1940's and 50's far outweighs a few damaged *defaced* cameras that show up on evilbay, there's no big mystery here............

And on the most part the *defaced* Nazi era cameras and optics were gear that was STAYING in Europe, in the 25+years I've seen *defaced* WW2 Leica's most of them came from Germany/France/Holland where the cameras were still being used, also Leica issued REPLACEMENT top plates for the WW2 era cameras, you can see these marked with the serial numbers starting with nr. instead of the original factory issued no.

Many of the clean original non-defaced WW2 engraved Leica's survived here in the USA where they came home originally as War Trophies.......

Tom

 

[charjohncarter]

The whole direction of where this story is going is misleading, there's not thousands of defaced Leica's out there with the Leica script purposelessly taken off to smuggle them into a country, also a scratched or damaged camera wouldn't bring $$$$ anything on the Black/Grey market, these cameras were individual circumstances of vandalized cameras that's all........

And back in the old days as is now, US servicemen and women ALWAYS run around with more than one camera around their neck, it was the Military members who could afford expensive German and Japanese cameras in the first place, they didn't have to damage their cameras to import them, I had paperwork signed on all my gear before I left Germany and didn't pay a cent in import taxes, (and I came home with more than 6 cameras and at least 10 or 12 lenses).
The Japanese companies added the <EP> Exchange Post symbols to their equipment from 1950 till the early 1970's for Servicemen returning from Asia, together with paperwork, they too didn't have to *deface* their cameras to bring them home.

I think that the amount of "mint condition" or non-defaced smuggled Grey/Black Market cameras from the 1940's and 50's far outweighs a few damaged *defaced* cameras that show up on evilbay, there's no big mystery here............

And on the most part the *defaced* Nazi era cameras and optics were gear that was STAYING in Europe, in the 25+years I've seen *defaced* WW2 Leica's most of them came from Germany/France/Holland where the cameras were still being used, also Leica issued REPLACEMENT top plates for the WW2 era cameras, you can see these marked with the serial numbers starting with nr. instead of the original factory issued no.

Many of the clean original non-defaced WW2 engraved Leica's survived here in the USA where they came home originally as War Trophies.......

Tom

Thanks for that Tom. Very interesting as always, and I'm not a gear guy. Somehow you always have THE FACTS. Later though at least from Japan gear bought there and brought back by businessmen (non PX) you did have to deface the company name.

My father-in-law brought back a pair of Nikon binocular ( from Japan, 1963-1966 ?)that he was required to deface the name 'Nikon' at US customs. Although, he did bring back a Spotmatic for me in 1969, that did not have to be 'defaced.'

By the way, my IIIf serial number is prefixed by 'nr.' I bought it in 1963 in the US, now I wonder about its history.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Just 'won' a 1941/42 IIIc with a scratched name and cracked but complete vulcanite.

Looks like I found another "stepper"/User 🙂

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I don't know about the rest of you but when I want to find out if there was a rule, law or similar I go and look in the library and so on. Archives exist and libraries have access to them and no Govt. ever throws a piece of paper away if it can be helped. I've even traced and copied the originals of Govt. contracts just to check things. Far better and a lot dearer in time and money than looking up the latest rumour on the internet.

Regards, David