lynnb
Veteran
Sorry to hear about your experience. For reference, here's a broad guide to photography in public places in Australia.
Your experience is not all that uncommon. It's happened to me, and also to work colleagues of mine. Sadly some societies seem more inclined towards paranoia than towards making objective assessments of risk.
If the swim centre is private property they have every right to ban photography or to request that people not take photos. Many privately (and also publicly) operated venues have signs up prohibiting photography. In practice, I have noticed they usually ignore women with cell phone cameras because they believe (erroneously, in fact) that they do not pose any risk to children; while middle aged men with single-purpose cameras (rather than cell phones) get undue attention. That's a sad fact of life.
The best strategy in my opinion is to deal confidently, politely but firmly with people and try to allay their fears. Perhaps ask them how their husband would feel if your wife behaved aggressively towards him when he had her kids at the pool. Would she expect him to stop taking pictures of his own children?
When people feel that children's safety is at risk, no matter how unreasonable that belief may be, they are usually not inclined to listen to reason. They are acting on emotion, not reason. Sometimes, it might be better to just walk away, and take your boy somewhere else. You don't want to take him places where you'll feel uncomfortable. Your time with him is too precious for that.
Your experience is not all that uncommon. It's happened to me, and also to work colleagues of mine. Sadly some societies seem more inclined towards paranoia than towards making objective assessments of risk.
If the swim centre is private property they have every right to ban photography or to request that people not take photos. Many privately (and also publicly) operated venues have signs up prohibiting photography. In practice, I have noticed they usually ignore women with cell phone cameras because they believe (erroneously, in fact) that they do not pose any risk to children; while middle aged men with single-purpose cameras (rather than cell phones) get undue attention. That's a sad fact of life.
The best strategy in my opinion is to deal confidently, politely but firmly with people and try to allay their fears. Perhaps ask them how their husband would feel if your wife behaved aggressively towards him when he had her kids at the pool. Would she expect him to stop taking pictures of his own children?
When people feel that children's safety is at risk, no matter how unreasonable that belief may be, they are usually not inclined to listen to reason. They are acting on emotion, not reason. Sometimes, it might be better to just walk away, and take your boy somewhere else. You don't want to take him places where you'll feel uncomfortable. Your time with him is too precious for that.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Publishing is seen as commercial venture and requires a model release like in pretty much every country. And a newspaper may not publish an image of a private person that is not of public interest without permission if said picture is embarrasing see Recht aufs Bild.
Dominik
newsgrunt
Well-known
yup, this is what I would do as well, life is too short.
Not sure but I'd also be tempted to let the facility manager know why you're leaving. I understand her 'concern' but really, that's a leap on her part.
Johnmcd
Well-known
Hi Rohan,
I am also in Australia and I feel your pain. I have been photographing my kids for 25 years. In particular, my youngest who is now 19. He is a pretty good sportsman so in summer it has been cricket and in winter, soccer. I have been doing this since he was about 7 years old. The great thing about it was that the other parents loved the shots I took of their sons also and at the end of the year many ordered large framed prints as gifts which I produced for cost. And each year the coach would get some framed photos specially of his own son. All good.
But!
Everyone other week, I would basically get some 'do-gooder' come up to me and try to tell me I couldn't take photos. It was always the same. I would position myself away from the main supporters to get the soccer action moving towards me so I was up near the goals, looking down the field. I would sense them approaching from behind me. They would then hesitate as they searched for the right words to ask me if I was a paedophile. I would keep clicking away. Then invariably they would ask if I was from the newspaper as my sport kit comprised of a Canon 7D and 300 F4 lens (if nothing else I looked the part). I would reply with a simple 'no' and continue at 8 fps. There would be silence again and then I would add that I was photographing my son. At this point one of two things would happen. They would say, 'ooh that's ok then' or 'I'm sorry but you are not allowed to take photos'. To both replies I would answer that I am allowed to take photographs in a public place regardless of whether he's my son or not. Sometimes they would argue but mostly they would leave. In all cases it completely ruined my day and I would pack up and stop.
I for one am sick and tired of my hobby being linked to such a heinous crime. And unfortunately it is gender based. My father in law who is 70 and adores children knows very well they he can't sit in park while walking his dog to simply enjoy the antics of young children playing but a grandmother can.
There is no doubt that if I was female I would not be accosted when taking photo's in the same way. In fact I feel much more comfortable when taking photo's with my partner as her presence seems to some how legitimise me taking photos. A male alone with a camera taking street photos, is asking for trouble.
If I was in fact such a 'predator' why would I bother taking images in public when all the major retailers deliver clothing catalogues to my door most days with children professionally photographed in their underwear. Go figure!
I am also in Australia and I feel your pain. I have been photographing my kids for 25 years. In particular, my youngest who is now 19. He is a pretty good sportsman so in summer it has been cricket and in winter, soccer. I have been doing this since he was about 7 years old. The great thing about it was that the other parents loved the shots I took of their sons also and at the end of the year many ordered large framed prints as gifts which I produced for cost. And each year the coach would get some framed photos specially of his own son. All good.
But!
Everyone other week, I would basically get some 'do-gooder' come up to me and try to tell me I couldn't take photos. It was always the same. I would position myself away from the main supporters to get the soccer action moving towards me so I was up near the goals, looking down the field. I would sense them approaching from behind me. They would then hesitate as they searched for the right words to ask me if I was a paedophile. I would keep clicking away. Then invariably they would ask if I was from the newspaper as my sport kit comprised of a Canon 7D and 300 F4 lens (if nothing else I looked the part). I would reply with a simple 'no' and continue at 8 fps. There would be silence again and then I would add that I was photographing my son. At this point one of two things would happen. They would say, 'ooh that's ok then' or 'I'm sorry but you are not allowed to take photos'. To both replies I would answer that I am allowed to take photographs in a public place regardless of whether he's my son or not. Sometimes they would argue but mostly they would leave. In all cases it completely ruined my day and I would pack up and stop.
I for one am sick and tired of my hobby being linked to such a heinous crime. And unfortunately it is gender based. My father in law who is 70 and adores children knows very well they he can't sit in park while walking his dog to simply enjoy the antics of young children playing but a grandmother can.
There is no doubt that if I was female I would not be accosted when taking photo's in the same way. In fact I feel much more comfortable when taking photo's with my partner as her presence seems to some how legitimise me taking photos. A male alone with a camera taking street photos, is asking for trouble.
If I was in fact such a 'predator' why would I bother taking images in public when all the major retailers deliver clothing catalogues to my door most days with children professionally photographed in their underwear. Go figure!
Photo_Smith
Well-known
I understand how you feel too as a father of three I've been in similar situations more than once. I guess in your case the woman (manager) felt some responsibility because it was her pool, possibly she'd had a complaint from another pool user and felt obliged to act.
Personally I've never taken pictures at a pool and wouldn't feel confident doing so but that's just me as I often take images of my kids on the beach.
The arbitrary nature of big camera=more threat is very common on a daily basis I've seen many iPhone users taking images never seen them stopped.
I on the other hand have been asked to stop taking pictures of my kids by a woman in the park– the excuse 'but they're my kids' shrug– didn't work she was quite insistent I stopped and repeated it angrily and louder. So rather than have a melt down I just took my kids away from the 'mad woman'
It's a shame will live in a society that vilifies male interaction and recording of children–we live in a sick society.
EDIT
I think John from NSW above says it better than I.
Personally I've never taken pictures at a pool and wouldn't feel confident doing so but that's just me as I often take images of my kids on the beach.
The arbitrary nature of big camera=more threat is very common on a daily basis I've seen many iPhone users taking images never seen them stopped.
I on the other hand have been asked to stop taking pictures of my kids by a woman in the park– the excuse 'but they're my kids' shrug– didn't work she was quite insistent I stopped and repeated it angrily and louder. So rather than have a melt down I just took my kids away from the 'mad woman'
It's a shame will live in a society that vilifies male interaction and recording of children–we live in a sick society.
EDIT
I think John from NSW above says it better than I.
astro8
Well-known
All too true....If I'm out with my wife I'll photograph anything or anyone and feel free to do so. No one seems to pay that much attention.
Alone, I feel people look at me as either a terrorist, pervert, insurance investigator or just 'up to no good' .
Mystyler
Established
It is for the reasons outlined in this thread I just don't even bother here in Australia. I go so far as to try to avoid ANY person being in frame unless they happen to wander in as I press the shutter.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dominik,
Not, not in 'pretty much every country'. In very few, in fact. The argument also falls down if a published image is a reproduction of an art photograph...
Cheers,
R.
retnull
Well-known
man shooting with SLR or DSLR: suspicious person
man shooting with rangefinder: suspicious wealthy person
man shooting with large format camera: obviously demented, probably harmless
man shooting with TLR: (no one notices -- TLR isn't recognized as a camera)
man shooting with rangefinder: suspicious wealthy person
man shooting with large format camera: obviously demented, probably harmless
man shooting with TLR: (no one notices -- TLR isn't recognized as a camera)
What happened to the days when trenchcoats and vans were the paraphernalia of choice?
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Are these the Austrian rules? In Germany publishing is permitted in the explained art or news context. The commercial nature is irrelevant, and embarrassment does not alter things either - if any, it might stop the publication of a otherwise newsworthy picture, if the embarrassing part is not relevant to its news character.
That is, the plain publication of a portrait of no public (art or news) interest already requires the permission of the subject.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
It's quite hard, though, to argue that a portrait has no artistic value... Also, consider a report on Arles. That's news.
Cheers,
R.
Gumby
Veteran
That is very sad. I get similar questions often, but the conclusion is very different.
"Are you from the newspaper?" me: "No."
"Are you the team photographer?" me: "No, just getting a few pictures of my kids."
"Would you take a few of my child; I'll pay you for them." me: "OK, I can do that."
"Oh... that isn't a digital camera... how will you get the pictures to me?"
DominikDUK
Well-known
After reading the laws of both Austria and Germany I have to say that there are some minor differences. All in all the german law is more severe than the Austrian one. In Germany the phrase goes as follows images may only be distributed or be shown in public with the the photographed, drawn, etc... person's consent exception art and newsworthy images. In Austria images can be freely distributed or shown as long as they are not derogatory, embarrasing or compromising to/for the depicted person and do not violate privacy laws. Both in Austria and Germany different rules for commercial use apply news and art context don't need to pay and don't require a models release the rest of the commercial world does.
Dominik
ianstamatic
Well-known
The PC BS in australia is just pathetic, worse than in the states or uk.
when someone asks you to do something that is out of order like that. just ask them politely 'seriously?' 'why' 'what do you mean by that' followed by 'what on earth are you implying lady, please explain yourself' followed by a 'let me speak to your manager.'
when someone asks you to do something that is out of order like that. just ask them politely 'seriously?' 'why' 'what do you mean by that' followed by 'what on earth are you implying lady, please explain yourself' followed by a 'let me speak to your manager.'
DominikDUK
Well-known
MIkhail
-
Not all people like that, I would even say not a majority, but there are some paranoids... happened to me as well. I had large camera and was not hiding but was confronted nonetheless. I showed the "photographer's rights" printout http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm and it slowed them down somewhat, but still there were rumblings and I just left.
Jonnyfez
Established
There's a bias against "real" cameras happening as we speak. You may have felt the fallout from that. You can't walk into a concert hall, or club - or even a mall with a camera around your neck and start shooting away. Meanwhile, everyone else in the establishment has a camera in their pocket and can snap away as they please. The irony is that the photos shot with their iphones have the potential for being distributed and shared worldwide -immediately. Whereas, the shots with your FE or my M2 aren't going anywhere for awhile.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
It's sad. Been doing this since the mid-1970's and used to take pictures out on the street with no issues. From small towns to big cities, most people just ignored me.
Then as the internet became more and more popular, I started getting harassed more and more. I think it may have something to do with folks being paranoid that their image is going to show up on the internet. And that would be an invasion of their privacy.
But I bet most of these same people who are complaining have loads of pictures of themselves and their kids on their Facebook pages and in other social media.
Really is a shame.
Best,
-Tim
Then as the internet became more and more popular, I started getting harassed more and more. I think it may have something to do with folks being paranoid that their image is going to show up on the internet. And that would be an invasion of their privacy.
But I bet most of these same people who are complaining have loads of pictures of themselves and their kids on their Facebook pages and in other social media.
Really is a shame.
Best,
-Tim
robert blu
quiet photographer
For sure it was a bad experience, but it's only a sign of the society many of us are living in. As Tim say most of these same people who are complaining have loads of pictures of themselves and their kids on their Facebook pages and in other social media. And a real "predator" would have the capacity to shoot or by phone or with any other instrument in order not to be noticed. But this is the world, or the time in which we are living...not nice.
robert
robert