robert blu
quiet photographer
I'm satisfied with my film cameras. I am ok 70% of times with my Leica x1, but I need to fill the remaining 30%, which is when I need a different focal lens. I set a budget for this purpose and now I really think about an om-d, or x-pro1 or (why not?) the new xe-1. No DSRL for sure. The sensor size does not bother me. The price is affordable in any case. The EVF is worrying me a little. I went today in two important shops to compare the view through them and to try the "feeling" of the different cameras and this is what happened.
Shop 1: famous shop in town, Leica Dealer where I bought my m7 by the way, I explained what I wrote here and the answer was : " x-pro1 is alreday old, forget it. The OM-D is excellent as the xe-1". The gentleman switch on the OM-D, showed me the VF and even put an adapter to show me the manual focus possibility with a 50mm Leica lens. Did not mention about view magnifying (if possible) or the LCD panel. Than I ask about the xe-1 but he even did not switch on it (no battery available). But he confirmed the OM-d is excellent and the B&W, wow! No prints seen.
Shop 2: new big shop dedicated to photography in town. Here I bought a few films (35 and 120) and than I put the same question: the salesman (?) put on the table the X-pro1 and told me it is specially indicated for portraits because the autofocus is good but not very quick. Than he put beside the xe-1 explaining it was more modern with the same sensor. I ask if I could look in the EVF but this was not possible in both cases because no battery available. No mention about the OM-D .
Now, when you buy an interchangeable lens camera you not only buy it but enter a system, which means you'll probably buy more lenses or accessory in future. And you desire to be sure to enter in the correct system. But spending money even without the possibility to compare the cameras in a shop is for me something I do not accept. Or I'm too old...
robert
Shop 1: famous shop in town, Leica Dealer where I bought my m7 by the way, I explained what I wrote here and the answer was : " x-pro1 is alreday old, forget it. The OM-D is excellent as the xe-1". The gentleman switch on the OM-D, showed me the VF and even put an adapter to show me the manual focus possibility with a 50mm Leica lens. Did not mention about view magnifying (if possible) or the LCD panel. Than I ask about the xe-1 but he even did not switch on it (no battery available). But he confirmed the OM-d is excellent and the B&W, wow! No prints seen.
Shop 2: new big shop dedicated to photography in town. Here I bought a few films (35 and 120) and than I put the same question: the salesman (?) put on the table the X-pro1 and told me it is specially indicated for portraits because the autofocus is good but not very quick. Than he put beside the xe-1 explaining it was more modern with the same sensor. I ask if I could look in the EVF but this was not possible in both cases because no battery available. No mention about the OM-D .
Now, when you buy an interchangeable lens camera you not only buy it but enter a system, which means you'll probably buy more lenses or accessory in future. And you desire to be sure to enter in the correct system. But spending money even without the possibility to compare the cameras in a shop is for me something I do not accept. Or I'm too old...
robert
Michael Markey
Veteran
It`s the way a lot of people seem buy things today Robert.
I had a similar conversation in a shop some years ago.
They thought it strange that I wanted them to take the item out of the box in order to see it.
As far as cameras are concerned people seem content to buy after reading reviews or just because it`s the latest model.
Concerns about ergonomics and feel that you hear expressed on forums such as these don`t appear to be part of the decision making process for many.
If you don`t like it you just buy another .
I feel the same way as you though.
I had a similar conversation in a shop some years ago.
They thought it strange that I wanted them to take the item out of the box in order to see it.
As far as cameras are concerned people seem content to buy after reading reviews or just because it`s the latest model.
Concerns about ergonomics and feel that you hear expressed on forums such as these don`t appear to be part of the decision making process for many.
If you don`t like it you just buy another .
I feel the same way as you though.
lam
Well-known
You've pointed out one very reason why even trying to buy a new system annoys the crap out of me.
How the **** do you expect to sell a product without letting the person ever try it?
About the subject matter you talk about, i've owned an XP1, X100, and tried numerous MFT including the acclaimed Olympus OM-D and I just honestly don't see too much that excites me in the MFT OM-D .. honestly... Maybe it's just not my shooting style.
and I don't necessarily think you'd be buying into a "wrong" system.. all cameras today generally have their own user base who like their equipment of choice for specific reasons. Exploring those reasons and understanding what they mean to you is the biggest part.
For me to recommend, i'd probably say the Fuji's would probably suit you, although the XP1 and XE1 are larger than your X1 by a considerable amount.
It's kinda ridiculous they're just telling you how the camera performs without proof of exploration of the equipment, no customer is going to trust a random sales guy on what is what... at least I wouldn't.
How the **** do you expect to sell a product without letting the person ever try it?
About the subject matter you talk about, i've owned an XP1, X100, and tried numerous MFT including the acclaimed Olympus OM-D and I just honestly don't see too much that excites me in the MFT OM-D .. honestly... Maybe it's just not my shooting style.
and I don't necessarily think you'd be buying into a "wrong" system.. all cameras today generally have their own user base who like their equipment of choice for specific reasons. Exploring those reasons and understanding what they mean to you is the biggest part.
For me to recommend, i'd probably say the Fuji's would probably suit you, although the XP1 and XE1 are larger than your X1 by a considerable amount.
It's kinda ridiculous they're just telling you how the camera performs without proof of exploration of the equipment, no customer is going to trust a random sales guy on what is what... at least I wouldn't.
TXForester
Well-known
I'm not in the market for a new camera now, but I think I'd feel the same about the shopping experience. With modern cameras that are so electronics dependent, including the viewfinder, there is no excuse to show a camera without the battery. Other than giving you a feel for out it fits in your hands, you are getting no more information than you get from reading an internet review.
It seems like the sales people were trying to show you a camera they want to sale, rather than let you get feel/information you need to make a decision on which camera/system best fits your needs. Talk to the store managers and tell them, that if you can't properly handle the cameras in store, you'll buy online or from another store.
It seems like the sales people were trying to show you a camera they want to sale, rather than let you get feel/information you need to make a decision on which camera/system best fits your needs. Talk to the store managers and tell them, that if you can't properly handle the cameras in store, you'll buy online or from another store.
paulfish4570
Veteran
poor help at both of those stores ...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Many folks are in the same boat ... there isn't any place accessible to them where they can see what they're considering side by side. Plus the (obnoxious) needs of sales personnel to sell what they're familiar with .. It all gets in the way.
I do my best shot at research, see if any stores nearby have what I am interested in so I can handle the cameras side by side, and then guess. I buy from retailers with a 7-14 day no-cost satisfaction return policy. That way I've at least got a fair shot at seeing whether what I'm interested does the job.
(BTW, if the X1 does what you like but you want the ability to use other focal lengths as well, what I use is the Ricoh GXR with A12 Camera Mount. This allows me to use my existing M-bayonet lenses and performs better, IMO, than any other electronic TTL camera out there with an adapter. It's a perfect complement to the M9 and works very nicely alongside the X2 as well, fitted with either a longer or shorter focal length. It's also great to use on its own ... a smallish, M-mount digital camera with excellent 12Mpixel sensor ...
Of course, if you're looking for AF, it's the wrong choice.)
zuiko85
Veteran
Yeah, now next to impossible to compare cameras for myself. And I don't live in Antarctica. Many, perhaps most of us are be forced to buy sight unseen and just based on online reviews. I'm not willing to part with my hard earned money that way so I shoot with a 35 year old film camera.
btgc
Veteran
I agree....you can try in shop cheap $80 shoes but for much more expensive camera there's no battery charged...
icebear
Veteran
Robert,
you mentioned the M7. Have you considered getting into the digital M, possibly a used M9? Do you already have several M lenses? If you are basically a M kind of guy anything else will never be satisfying to you. And saving now and being frustrated for a long time before finally making the plunge and get a digital M will not save you any money.
I would wait until the M (aka M10) is being released and potentially cause another drop in price for used M9's.
Sorry about the bad shopping experience but you really have to get lucky to find a small shop, where the owner and staff are passionate about photography themselves and not passionate about selling most cameras per day.
you mentioned the M7. Have you considered getting into the digital M, possibly a used M9? Do you already have several M lenses? If you are basically a M kind of guy anything else will never be satisfying to you. And saving now and being frustrated for a long time before finally making the plunge and get a digital M will not save you any money.
I would wait until the M (aka M10) is being released and potentially cause another drop in price for used M9's.
Sorry about the bad shopping experience but you really have to get lucky to find a small shop, where the owner and staff are passionate about photography themselves and not passionate about selling most cameras per day.
ssmc
Well-known
Slightly OT, but...
I spent some time selling sport shoes and the attitude you describe would not fly for one second. I can't imagine why it's such a big deal to have a display model with a charged battery. Weird.
I spent some time selling sport shoes and the attitude you describe would not fly for one second. I can't imagine why it's such a big deal to have a display model with a charged battery. Weird.
unixrevolution
Well-known
...I have entertained daydreams about opening a camera shop. Now I know what I will do differently. Batteries charged. Sample prints.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I've worked with dealers who had sample prints. Personally, I've never seen one iota of value in looking at someone else's photos to evaluate a piece of equipment.
- Have the product the customer wants to evaluate in stock and ready.
- Have a charged battery ready.
- Have a lens or two on hand, if an interchangeable lens camera.
- Have the instruction booklet available at the counter.
- Know how to reset the camera to its factory defaults before handing it to a customer.
- Allow the customer to make a few exposures with the camera *on his/her own storage card* so they can take the exposures home and look at them in detail. (Good opportunity to give away an inexpensive storage card as a 'come along' ... a feel good gift to potential customers.)
These things make me a happier customer, more inclined to spend money in your shop.
daveleo
what?
A camera store ?
A camera store ?
I haven't been in a real live camera store for, I'm thinking, 15 years, since the local shop closed (a big big loss for us because the guy who owned it knew and loved his craft and would lend you stuff for a weekend, no charge, no hassle . . . you could actually learn stuff just talking to him ! ).
Now and then I may play with the cameras at BB (the big chain electronics franchise around here), but as far as actually talking through a possible camera system purchase with a random department store clerk ? . . . please !
If I had half a brain, I'd open a shop myself. But my wife would probably kill me, and anyway I only have 1/4 of a brain.
A camera store ?
I haven't been in a real live camera store for, I'm thinking, 15 years, since the local shop closed (a big big loss for us because the guy who owned it knew and loved his craft and would lend you stuff for a weekend, no charge, no hassle . . . you could actually learn stuff just talking to him !
).Now and then I may play with the cameras at BB (the big chain electronics franchise around here), but as far as actually talking through a possible camera system purchase with a random department store clerk ? . . . please !
If I had half a brain, I'd open a shop myself. But my wife would probably kill me, and anyway I only have 1/4 of a brain.
ShinX414
camera geek
i experienced sth similar too but in my case they had batterys but didn't let me try since they thought i was simply to young (I'm 23years old) to afford the X-pro1...
kuzano
Veteran
Interesting common Rant from the elderly....????
Interesting common Rant from the elderly....????
I am 69 years old. I can honestly say that I have not held or fondled any new camera I have purchased in the last 10-15 years. Film or Digital and there have been many.
I think it's safe to say that most of the rants come from OF's that are in locations, or close enough, where they will drive to see, handle, shoot *dry or otherwise* the object of their desire.
I don't. It's 200 miles to the nearest store that ?may? have what I am considering.
I think it's safe to say that the look,handle,feel,dry shoot experience is disappearing and will so in the big cities as well. I'm already comfortable with it. I buy, I don't like, I sell. Less hassle than a drive to the big city, or in some cases simply downtown.
I'm not surprised by sales people not bringing up discussions on the Olympus offerings. Sales people are generally not willing to go the extra distance to sell something they don't understand. It's a stretch for them to try to push the 4/3 sensor, because of the misunderstandings about that system.
I've been happy with Olympus since the Evolt E300 and E-1 since the beginning of their digital. I am now moving to the new 16volt sensor and process engine, via the PEN following up the EM5 (OMD). I frankly don't think there is an APSc based mirrorless product PLUS lens system than can outshoot the new Olympus and offer lens selection via the Olympus/Panasonic/legacy adapted lens availability.
Interesting common Rant from the elderly....????
I am 69 years old. I can honestly say that I have not held or fondled any new camera I have purchased in the last 10-15 years. Film or Digital and there have been many.
I think it's safe to say that most of the rants come from OF's that are in locations, or close enough, where they will drive to see, handle, shoot *dry or otherwise* the object of their desire.
I don't. It's 200 miles to the nearest store that ?may? have what I am considering.
I think it's safe to say that the look,handle,feel,dry shoot experience is disappearing and will so in the big cities as well. I'm already comfortable with it. I buy, I don't like, I sell. Less hassle than a drive to the big city, or in some cases simply downtown.
I'm not surprised by sales people not bringing up discussions on the Olympus offerings. Sales people are generally not willing to go the extra distance to sell something they don't understand. It's a stretch for them to try to push the 4/3 sensor, because of the misunderstandings about that system.
I've been happy with Olympus since the Evolt E300 and E-1 since the beginning of their digital. I am now moving to the new 16volt sensor and process engine, via the PEN following up the EM5 (OMD). I frankly don't think there is an APSc based mirrorless product PLUS lens system than can outshoot the new Olympus and offer lens selection via the Olympus/Panasonic/legacy adapted lens availability.
leicapixie
Well-known
There is no point in placing a camera that doesn't work. No battery is an excuse.. One needs to shoot a some exposures, take the card home and compare. If one is not going that route, well buy whatever is the "newest" "better" model of the week. My last camera purchased in the sealed package, was at a great price, the illustration almost same as my present model. Reason, no more flash! Gravity tests and many exposures..
Well it is quite different. Way thinner and smaller, no manual settings but many other great features. A stealth mode ! If it had NOT been satisfactory i would have returned it!
Note! Price! It was down from well over $100 to $60 plus taxes. No big deal.
Well it is quite different. Way thinner and smaller, no manual settings but many other great features. A stealth mode ! If it had NOT been satisfactory i would have returned it!
Note! Price! It was down from well over $100 to $60 plus taxes. No big deal.
bigeye
Well-known
Ironically, one of the least costly shops has most cameras on fondling leashes. If you ever get to NYC, stop by B&H.
I've walked away from several web-darlings (and discounted several web-reviewers) based on a good grope there.
I have more trouble with the camera being 'obsolete' before you leave the store, though.
.
I've walked away from several web-darlings (and discounted several web-reviewers) based on a good grope there.
I have more trouble with the camera being 'obsolete' before you leave the store, though.
.
Paul Jenkin
Well-known
There are many good camera shops in London and a few truly crap ones, IMO. One of the better ones is Red Dot Cameras who, as their nasme suggests, specialise in Leica.. Ivor, the proprietor, doesn't just have cameras he's prepared to let you "fondle", he has a folio full of A4 and A3 prints taken with the various cameras and lenses he has for sale.
For the life of me, aside from if they had to travel a huge distance to get to a shop, I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would spend a significant wodge of their hard-earned money on something to which they may take an instant dislike when it arrives. We are customers and deserve a bit of respect and service. We are not here for the benefit of the shops - it's the other way round.....!!
For the life of me, aside from if they had to travel a huge distance to get to a shop, I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would spend a significant wodge of their hard-earned money on something to which they may take an instant dislike when it arrives. We are customers and deserve a bit of respect and service. We are not here for the benefit of the shops - it's the other way round.....!!
robert blu
quiet photographer
Thank you all for the many interesting comments.
Two things disturb me about that experience.
One is the general attitude for which you should buy and if you do not like you buy another one! Where I live they do not give you back the money even within a short time (one week?). The maximum they do is to put your "rejected" camera on a shelf for sale as preowned item and you soon loose at least a 25% of the value. And you'll get money only when and if the item will be sold. And because my income is not unlimited I do not accept this, at least I do not like it. By the way this applies not only to photo equipment.
The second things is that in a difficult economic climate as we are experiencing in Italy, with shops owners complaining for turn over reducing everyday I suppose that in one of the historical shops of Milan (7.000.000 inhabitants in the area) people try their best to satisfy a potential client. But when the owner of the shop only shows you one of the items I think that the reason can or he has not the other in stock or he has an higher margin on this one. Eventually, he does not know how the other works. In any case it is not a professional way to sell.
They should not complain than if people buy more and more from the net!
I have been working in a marketing and customer service section for 30 years and I know the effort we had to do to make clients satisfied, maybe this is influencing me too much !
For a similar reason I'll never buy again a Leica, even if satisfied both with the m7 and the x1: their customer service is low. An example: since a few month there is Leica Italia. I e-mailed them to know if they have available that rubber ring on the viewfinder of the x1. No answer! It's not a difficult question, there could be only 3 possible answers, yes/no/in a ...weeks. The fact that a customer service do not answer is a clear indication of the company's attitude.
Stop ranting now! Just for info I found in the local photo club a guy, an Olympus fan who has an OM-D and we can meet, he will show and let test his camera. No one around me owns one of the x- fuji.
Regards, robert
PS: one more shop to visit next week...
Two things disturb me about that experience.
One is the general attitude for which you should buy and if you do not like you buy another one! Where I live they do not give you back the money even within a short time (one week?). The maximum they do is to put your "rejected" camera on a shelf for sale as preowned item and you soon loose at least a 25% of the value. And you'll get money only when and if the item will be sold. And because my income is not unlimited I do not accept this, at least I do not like it. By the way this applies not only to photo equipment.
The second things is that in a difficult economic climate as we are experiencing in Italy, with shops owners complaining for turn over reducing everyday I suppose that in one of the historical shops of Milan (7.000.000 inhabitants in the area) people try their best to satisfy a potential client. But when the owner of the shop only shows you one of the items I think that the reason can or he has not the other in stock or he has an higher margin on this one. Eventually, he does not know how the other works. In any case it is not a professional way to sell.
They should not complain than if people buy more and more from the net!
I have been working in a marketing and customer service section for 30 years and I know the effort we had to do to make clients satisfied, maybe this is influencing me too much !
For a similar reason I'll never buy again a Leica, even if satisfied both with the m7 and the x1: their customer service is low. An example: since a few month there is Leica Italia. I e-mailed them to know if they have available that rubber ring on the viewfinder of the x1. No answer! It's not a difficult question, there could be only 3 possible answers, yes/no/in a ...weeks. The fact that a customer service do not answer is a clear indication of the company's attitude.
Stop ranting now! Just for info I found in the local photo club a guy, an Olympus fan who has an OM-D and we can meet, he will show and let test his camera. No one around me owns one of the x- fuji.
Regards, robert
PS: one more shop to visit next week...
Frontman
Well-known
Unfortunately, I never have any difficulty buying cameras, which is probably why I have so many.
Your shopping experience sounds a bit silly. I have occasionally found a display camera in a store with a dead battery, but the sales staff were always quick to find a replacement so I could try the camera out.
I bought an X-Pro shortly after they were introduced, the shop I bought the camera from had a book of prints in A4 and B3 sizes printed on different types of paper. This really helped me to make a decision.
Good luck with your future shopping, you might want to call ahead next time to make sure that the shops you plan to visit actually have working display models.
Your shopping experience sounds a bit silly. I have occasionally found a display camera in a store with a dead battery, but the sales staff were always quick to find a replacement so I could try the camera out.
I bought an X-Pro shortly after they were introduced, the shop I bought the camera from had a book of prints in A4 and B3 sizes printed on different types of paper. This really helped me to make a decision.
Good luck with your future shopping, you might want to call ahead next time to make sure that the shops you plan to visit actually have working display models.