gychang
Newbie
my first post here, have used Yashica 124G and Mamiya C220 about 30 years ago, and have rudimentary knowledge of darkroom as a hobbiest.
Am again getting interested in large B&W prints and limitation of digital enlargement leads me back to TLRs. I am hopeful of producing reasonably sharp prints of 40x40" print size.
Am looking for used Yashica 124G or similar TLR to achieve this goal (want to minimize $$ expendature). Like to use web site for prints but may develop at home.
would like any suggestions or ideas on my new upcoming adventure...
gychang
Am again getting interested in large B&W prints and limitation of digital enlargement leads me back to TLRs. I am hopeful of producing reasonably sharp prints of 40x40" print size.
Am looking for used Yashica 124G or similar TLR to achieve this goal (want to minimize $$ expendature). Like to use web site for prints but may develop at home.
would like any suggestions or ideas on my new upcoming adventure...
gychang
smiling gecko
pure dumb luck, my friend
wow!!!
the adventure you are embarking on is inspiring and enviable.
processing trays large enough to print 40x40 may be difficult (and expensive) to find.
i had thought of trying to print on that scale and stumbled across an idea of substituting really large non-convential trays -i cannot remember the exact name, but they are called refrigerator trays/holding pads/???...i had read somewhere that some folks use light-tight pvc tube...and others use wall paper trays...
they are something like 48"x60" (or so...) and are about 2" deep and hold water/condensation/???...sort of a gargantuan dark room tray.
i would make sure your enlarger is mounted on a secure platform to help ward off vibration as much as possible...and that the enlarger is aligned - especially that the negative carrier and its holder are as parallel as possible to the base...
...oh, and try to compose your image in the camera as close to what you think you want the final print to show...that means "filling the frame" to avoid cropping on the enlarger...
using a medium speed film will help keep grain size down to a smallish roar and help maintain the range of tones in your image.
there's more to it and hopefully someone with a better grasp of technique and more experience will chime in...i'm about in over my head here : - )
you may already thought of these things since you did print once-upon-a-time : -)
breathe, relax and enjoy.
smiling gecko, aka kenneth
the adventure you are embarking on is inspiring and enviable.
processing trays large enough to print 40x40 may be difficult (and expensive) to find.
i had thought of trying to print on that scale and stumbled across an idea of substituting really large non-convential trays -i cannot remember the exact name, but they are called refrigerator trays/holding pads/???...i had read somewhere that some folks use light-tight pvc tube...and others use wall paper trays...
they are something like 48"x60" (or so...) and are about 2" deep and hold water/condensation/???...sort of a gargantuan dark room tray.
i would make sure your enlarger is mounted on a secure platform to help ward off vibration as much as possible...and that the enlarger is aligned - especially that the negative carrier and its holder are as parallel as possible to the base...
...oh, and try to compose your image in the camera as close to what you think you want the final print to show...that means "filling the frame" to avoid cropping on the enlarger...
using a medium speed film will help keep grain size down to a smallish roar and help maintain the range of tones in your image.
there's more to it and hopefully someone with a better grasp of technique and more experience will chime in...i'm about in over my head here : - )
you may already thought of these things since you did print once-upon-a-time : -)
breathe, relax and enjoy.
smiling gecko, aka kenneth
gychang
Newbie
thanks for encouragement, initially I may just have to develop film, I have used rodinal years in past. Print develop maybe a problem logistically as u point out. Print develop may have to wait til I fully retire... mean time, I will have to look into local photo shops or a specialized web photo print site.
gychang
gychang
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
gychang, I like the little Fuji/Leica digicam in your avatar. I have one of those and enjoyed it very much.
For a large print, I would start with a commercial provider. I get nice 20x30 prints from CostCo for very reasonable prices. A little harder to find, there are shops which print a digital image on conventional b&w paper like Digital Silver Imaging in Mass. I have seen their product and it is excellent.
To get started in TLR at a reasonable price, you have already named the cameras. Shoot and develop, scan on a flatbed (Epson?), and I think you'll have great digital files to print up to 12x12 and possibly larger. Get a drum scan of your best images and make your 40x40 prints.
In other words, film is great, but I think digital beats darkroom these days.
Enjoy yourself!
For a large print, I would start with a commercial provider. I get nice 20x30 prints from CostCo for very reasonable prices. A little harder to find, there are shops which print a digital image on conventional b&w paper like Digital Silver Imaging in Mass. I have seen their product and it is excellent.
To get started in TLR at a reasonable price, you have already named the cameras. Shoot and develop, scan on a flatbed (Epson?), and I think you'll have great digital files to print up to 12x12 and possibly larger. Get a drum scan of your best images and make your 40x40 prints.
In other words, film is great, but I think digital beats darkroom these days.
Enjoy yourself!
thompsonks
Well-known
I have to agree with The Colonel. 16x20 was a 'large' darkroom print; 20x24 was pretty much the max. And an enlaraging lens has sits own resolution problems. In this respect it's darkroom printing, not digital printing, that has its limitations.
IMO the only way to go for large prints is scanning and digital printing (outsourced) on 44" roll paper.
Kirk
IMO the only way to go for large prints is scanning and digital printing (outsourced) on 44" roll paper.
Kirk
graywolf
Well-known
Depends!
If you scan and print digitally you wind up with a digital print. If you print and process in a darkroom you wind up with an optical print. At 40" x 40" they do not much look the same. Which is better?
Neither, they are just different.
A darkroom large enough to do 40x40 or larger takes up a lot of space, expensive space. A printer large enough to print 40" wide costs a lot of money. If you are going to send the work out, you are going to have a hard time finding someplace to do optical prints that large these days.
I can do 16x20 b&w prints in the bathroom/darkroom in my apartment, I am limited to 13x19 inkjet prints but usually only do up to to 11x14. Space and money are the limitations here.
Of course, if space and/or money is not problem one can do billboard sized prints. In that case you may want to consider a camera larger than the usual TLR. With 20 diameter blowups, you are going to want to use a tripod anyway.
If you scan and print digitally you wind up with a digital print. If you print and process in a darkroom you wind up with an optical print. At 40" x 40" they do not much look the same. Which is better?
Neither, they are just different.
A darkroom large enough to do 40x40 or larger takes up a lot of space, expensive space. A printer large enough to print 40" wide costs a lot of money. If you are going to send the work out, you are going to have a hard time finding someplace to do optical prints that large these days.
I can do 16x20 b&w prints in the bathroom/darkroom in my apartment, I am limited to 13x19 inkjet prints but usually only do up to to 11x14. Space and money are the limitations here.
Of course, if space and/or money is not problem one can do billboard sized prints. In that case you may want to consider a camera larger than the usual TLR. With 20 diameter blowups, you are going to want to use a tripod anyway.
gychang
Newbie
thanks for all the valueable inputs. Looks like "analog" darkroom is out of question due to space issue and cost involved.
so here is a plan to end up with a large print.
1. get TLR
2. develop film myself, will give up on inhome darkroom for printing
3. scan the film?, here I am little lost
How do I scan to end up with a large digital file, that will be sufficiently workable to end up with a large print?, I know there are 35mm film scanner...
so here is a plan to end up with a large print.
1. get TLR
2. develop film myself, will give up on inhome darkroom for printing
3. scan the film?, here I am little lost
How do I scan to end up with a large digital file, that will be sufficiently workable to end up with a large print?, I know there are 35mm film scanner...
gychang
Newbie
thanks for all the valueable inputs. Looks like "analog" darkroom is out of question due to space issue and cost involved.
so here is a plan to end up with a large print.
1. get TLR
2. develop film myself, will give up on inhome darkroom for printing
3. scan the film?, here I am little lost, do I send out or self scan (what model Epson?)
How do I scan to end up with a large digital file, that will be sufficiently workable to end up with a large print?, I know there are film scanners but not sure what the quality will be...
so here is a plan to end up with a large print.
1. get TLR
2. develop film myself, will give up on inhome darkroom for printing
3. scan the film?, here I am little lost, do I send out or self scan (what model Epson?)
How do I scan to end up with a large digital file, that will be sufficiently workable to end up with a large print?, I know there are film scanners but not sure what the quality will be...
mfogiel
Veteran
Well, I think, that you have 3 logical routes:
1- shoot, develop, and print in a darkroom
2 - shoot, develop, scan and print on an inkjet ( it is not true, that digital enlargement is limited to A1, you can print on roll paper)
3 - shoot, develop, scan, and send to a lab, which can either print on some inkjet or similar surface, or, in case of specialized labs, can print on real photographic baryta paper
In any case, the first part is critical: shoot and develop.
If you are concerned with sharpness, use your camera on a tripod, and shoot between f 5.6 and f 11. Use a sharp film, if possible (Ilford Delta 100, Tmax 100, Fuji Acros or Tmax 400).
Avoid Rodinal, unless you want to see grain. There are better high definition developers available today : FX39 or some SPUR developers.
As to scanning, you can scan on a flatbed for proofing, once you have carefully selected the photo for your big print, bring the negative to a lab, and ask for a drum scan, or at least a high resolution scan on an Imacon scanner ( you should ideally scan at a resolution of about 6000ppi ).
I would first look for a pro lab in your area, and ask for quotes for the scanning and printing. My guess is, that a single HR scan plus a 40x40 baryta print will cost you a few times more than your Yashica Mat, so perhaps you should downsize your ambitions, or buy a Roilleiflex... As far as I am concerned, the sharpest lenses in 6x6 MF are Rolleiflex Planar 3.5/75, Hasselblad SWC (38mm), Hasselblad 50/4 FLE, Hasselblad Planar 100/3.5 and Hasselblad Sonnar 180/4 ( there is also the super expensive Sonnar 250/5.6 Superachromat). However, according to many, also Mamiya 6 lenses are superb, and should cost less. Apparently, some Mamiya TLR lenses are also good, so perhaps you should first try this one.
1- shoot, develop, and print in a darkroom
2 - shoot, develop, scan and print on an inkjet ( it is not true, that digital enlargement is limited to A1, you can print on roll paper)
3 - shoot, develop, scan, and send to a lab, which can either print on some inkjet or similar surface, or, in case of specialized labs, can print on real photographic baryta paper
In any case, the first part is critical: shoot and develop.
If you are concerned with sharpness, use your camera on a tripod, and shoot between f 5.6 and f 11. Use a sharp film, if possible (Ilford Delta 100, Tmax 100, Fuji Acros or Tmax 400).
Avoid Rodinal, unless you want to see grain. There are better high definition developers available today : FX39 or some SPUR developers.
As to scanning, you can scan on a flatbed for proofing, once you have carefully selected the photo for your big print, bring the negative to a lab, and ask for a drum scan, or at least a high resolution scan on an Imacon scanner ( you should ideally scan at a resolution of about 6000ppi ).
I would first look for a pro lab in your area, and ask for quotes for the scanning and printing. My guess is, that a single HR scan plus a 40x40 baryta print will cost you a few times more than your Yashica Mat, so perhaps you should downsize your ambitions, or buy a Roilleiflex... As far as I am concerned, the sharpest lenses in 6x6 MF are Rolleiflex Planar 3.5/75, Hasselblad SWC (38mm), Hasselblad 50/4 FLE, Hasselblad Planar 100/3.5 and Hasselblad Sonnar 180/4 ( there is also the super expensive Sonnar 250/5.6 Superachromat). However, according to many, also Mamiya 6 lenses are superb, and should cost less. Apparently, some Mamiya TLR lenses are also good, so perhaps you should first try this one.
thegman
Veteran
I just made 32"x32" prints from a 6x6 negative. I would say it does not lack for resolution, but rather at that size, camera shake is more of an issue.
I think a YashicaMat will be just fine for you, and I'm sure you can handle development yourself. For scanning. I like the Epson V700, will give you a load of resolution, which in my view is fine for 40" prints. Others will say that you need a dedicated film scanner, but I'd say that's a personal choice, neither right nor wrong.
I think a YashicaMat will be just fine for you, and I'm sure you can handle development yourself. For scanning. I like the Epson V700, will give you a load of resolution, which in my view is fine for 40" prints. Others will say that you need a dedicated film scanner, but I'd say that's a personal choice, neither right nor wrong.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
My advice is to get a good quality TLR, set it on a tripod and use slower film.
Acros and TMax 100 are at the top end speed wise, if low grain high sharpness is the goal things get harder. Something like Adox CMS 20 will give you grain free super sharp images but will require care in processing.
I would buy a cheap scanner (Epson V series) for proofing and internet images possibly prints up to 12" wide. The larger ones I'd leave to professionals– it will cost but in reality how many 40" wide prints will you produce in a year?
If you are selling them build that into your cost, if you are doing it for fun the learning curve is steep to learn top notch scanning and buying a $100 TLR and a $2000 scanner may make you consider what you ultimately want.
Acros and TMax 100 are at the top end speed wise, if low grain high sharpness is the goal things get harder. Something like Adox CMS 20 will give you grain free super sharp images but will require care in processing.
I would buy a cheap scanner (Epson V series) for proofing and internet images possibly prints up to 12" wide. The larger ones I'd leave to professionals– it will cost but in reality how many 40" wide prints will you produce in a year?
If you are selling them build that into your cost, if you are doing it for fun the learning curve is steep to learn top notch scanning and buying a $100 TLR and a $2000 scanner may make you consider what you ultimately want.
oftheherd
Veteran
All good advice above on darkroom work. A couple of things to consider are a 6x6 enlarger can be used to project on the floor or a wall, so you wouldn't need a 4x5 or larger enlarger. Understand that your exposure times will be a little longer, and reciprocity may play a part in the exposure. You would have to check the instruction sheet or company site about that.
As to development, I never tried it, but I recall years ago, reading about someone making their own trays. I seem to recall they showed both plastic of some kind, and wood with some plasticiszed compound inside. They were just a little longer than the widest part of the print size, and something like 8 or 10 inches wide, probably about as deep. A plastic roller, such as pvc was used to wrap the exposed print paper around. You grasped each end of the printing paper, with the print around the roller, and the non-emulsion side in contact with the roller. You move both edges of the print up and down, exposing all the emulsion to the developer in your box/tray. I never tried it, but I see no reason it wouldn't work. It might require some expermimentation on developing times for the print but I doubt it as the moving up and down just provides a kind of agitation.
If you do try that and it works, many of us here would be appreciative of a report back how you did it and how it worked.
EDIT: I meant to add that I used to own a Yashica MAT 124 G, and was at a place where I had access to very large trays. I successfully made 20x24 prints. I may have even made a few larger, but I can't recall for sure. Considering the viewing size for 20x24 is not nose distance away, the prints were quite nice. I remember doing landscape and portraits, even coloring some of the portraits with Marshals.
As to development, I never tried it, but I recall years ago, reading about someone making their own trays. I seem to recall they showed both plastic of some kind, and wood with some plasticiszed compound inside. They were just a little longer than the widest part of the print size, and something like 8 or 10 inches wide, probably about as deep. A plastic roller, such as pvc was used to wrap the exposed print paper around. You grasped each end of the printing paper, with the print around the roller, and the non-emulsion side in contact with the roller. You move both edges of the print up and down, exposing all the emulsion to the developer in your box/tray. I never tried it, but I see no reason it wouldn't work. It might require some expermimentation on developing times for the print but I doubt it as the moving up and down just provides a kind of agitation.
If you do try that and it works, many of us here would be appreciative of a report back how you did it and how it worked.
EDIT: I meant to add that I used to own a Yashica MAT 124 G, and was at a place where I had access to very large trays. I successfully made 20x24 prints. I may have even made a few larger, but I can't recall for sure. Considering the viewing size for 20x24 is not nose distance away, the prints were quite nice. I remember doing landscape and portraits, even coloring some of the portraits with Marshals.
mfogiel
Veteran
Perhaps, we should make you understand better, what it takes to mage a sharp, large dimension print in the darkroom, have a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCN_WQeEKnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCN_WQeEKnc
retnull
Well-known
If you really want to go BIG, like 40"x40"...a 6cm x 6cm negative may not be enough. Have you considered large format? A 4"x5" negative will be noticeably better when printed BIG.
A 4x5 field camera with a decent lens (say, Graflex Super Speed with 150mm Xenar) can be had for $300 - $400 or less.
Sorry if this is not a direct answer, just wanted to add a different perspective to the conversation.
A 4x5 field camera with a decent lens (say, Graflex Super Speed with 150mm Xenar) can be had for $300 - $400 or less.
Sorry if this is not a direct answer, just wanted to add a different perspective to the conversation.
May I ask why you are worrying about the size right now? I would get a process in place and then see if what you have is worth printing at this size. Sounds like you need to learn a few things before trying to make huge prints. Not a diss, but something to think about. If you are not printing in a wet darkroom and are relying on a scanner, you will need a really nice scanner to do what you want to do.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Thanks, mfogiel. Delighted to see Clyde Butcher brought into this conversation. His large darkroom prints (48" and larger) are fabulous and can be seen in his gallery at Big Cypress. In case you are not familiar, his subject is the Everglades.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Since you don't want to go the digital route the best option would be the internegative route. Create and 8x8 inch internegative from the 6x6 neg and use the 8x8 neg for enlargement. It is still a big enlargement but you don't have to enlarge the neg some 20 times. It's only 5x to go from 8x8 to 40x40 and only 3 times to go from 6x6cm to 8x8in. The biggest cost factor would be the 8x10 enlarger you would need. If you don't want to go that way oftheherds advice is spot on.
Dominik
Dominik
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Just a thought about making your own trays, I used to make large prints this way in a trough about a foot high by 8" wide prints were weighted down with a roller.
But note it was a two man process to see saw the print. Making a few prints like that will keep you fit....
But note it was a two man process to see saw the print. Making a few prints like that will keep you fit....
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
To get really sharp 40x40 prints from 6x6 you are going to have to very carefully control every step of the process from camera to final print. You can do it the hard way with 6x6 or the easy way with 4x5. Or just get a D800 and print as big as you like.
Dwig
Well-known
Optical printing has its problems. Geting sharp, crisp prints at anything greater than 10x magnification from the negative is a challenge. The problems increase exponentially beyond that.
Getting a 40x40" print from a 6x6 neg is just shy of 20x magnification. At those magnifications even the amount of traffic on the street outside becomes an issue. Even from a 4x5 neg a 40x40" print, about an 11x magnification, requires very careful attention to every detail when printing.
The largest wet print I even made in any of my darkrooms was 20x30, and I did very few of those. They were from 35mm and the sharpenss and detail were marginal by the standards I hold today. 16x20 was normally the largest I made and the qood ones were all from 4x5 or 3-1/4x4-1/4 negs.
Getting a 40x40" print from a 6x6 neg is just shy of 20x magnification. At those magnifications even the amount of traffic on the street outside becomes an issue. Even from a 4x5 neg a 40x40" print, about an 11x magnification, requires very careful attention to every detail when printing.
The largest wet print I even made in any of my darkrooms was 20x30, and I did very few of those. They were from 35mm and the sharpenss and detail were marginal by the standards I hold today. 16x20 was normally the largest I made and the qood ones were all from 4x5 or 3-1/4x4-1/4 negs.