Olympus PEN: EVF/OVF/LCD???

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jett

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I'm going to pick up an m43 outfit for snapshots and video. I cheap outfit: P2 + 20mm f1.7. Well I'm also considering the P3...but I am honestly am not too impressed with anything digital unless it is fullframe so I'd prefer to spend less money with that mentality.

My dilemma is that I'm not sure how I'm going to compose: off LCD or off viewfinder.

What are your experiences?

A lot of people do not like the OVF because there is no confirmation or exposure data. I don't see how focus confirmation is THAT much different than it is on a Hexar AF or Olympus Epic. Latitude might be a bigger problem but i can always chimp and my lighting conditions are going to be easier (less contrast...indoors, mostly). I'm not going for decisive moment shots.

I was talking to someone today about the EVF and he loves it because it saves the battery and he likes to use it for video.

Do you guys find the EVF/OVF more stable for slower shutter speeds (I'd prefer to keep the ISO as low as possible)? i heard that the image stabilization works very well so maybe it is unnecessary in that regard.

Do you guys find the lack of confirmation to be a problem? I figured that the AF is better than most film point and shoots and the meter I'd imagien to be very good too. I'm not going for decisive moment shots, so I can always chimp.

Do you find that using the EVF/OVF to be less fatiguing for video? I don't plan on doing anything too crazy..maybe 2 minutes, max? The person mentioned that sticking your hands out gets you tired more quicker, it makes sense, I guess.
 
I use the LCD for still objects, such as closeups of cameras, etc.

For everything else, I use the VF-2. It's an excellent viewfinder, because you can tilt it at different angles. Plus, it's great for bright, sunny days when the LCD is difficult to view.

And finally, you'll reach the point in your life, when you can't focus on anything that's closer than three feet.
 
(I used Micro-FourThirds cameras almost exclusively for a couple of years, late 2008 up to the end of 2010. Just picked up an Olympus E-PL1 inexpensively a couple of weeks ago, so I can use a couple of oddball lenses I adapted to the mount again.)

I don't use AF lenses very often. I tend to always have adapted manual lenses on my Micro-FourThirds cameras. So either I'm focusing by zone mostly, using an OVF, and checking focus occasionally with the LCD, or I've got an EVF fitted so I can see through and focus the lens. If you leave the confirmation bleeps and beeps enabled, with AF you'll hear on the half press when the camera think's it's in focus, I believe.

I seem to be able to hold the camera quite steadily regardless of whether I use the EVF, an OVF, or the LCD. Olympus' image stabilization is quite good.

On the occasions when I've shot video, I tend to set focus manually and then move the camera around ... an optical viewfinder does me well, but the LCD is often even more convenient, particularly if I move the focus while I move the camera.

Why are you choosing the E-P2 model?

G
 
Well I love film and black and white but the reason why I wanted a digital camera is for snapshots, video and to take pictures of my cameras to sell (I have none at all, not even a smart phone..). I'm not going for optimal quality but "good enough".

I was looking for something low cost but still good image quality so I settled on an M43 because they're quite popular and are progressing well (take the OM-D, for instance).
-The Ricoh GXR intrigues me but the progression is quite slow and the lens selection is real limiting.
-The NEX cameras look too ugly and I'm not a big fan, native lens selection sucks too. I don't have wide enough Leica lenses to use.
-The X100 intrigues me too but I prefer to not spend too much money on a body because I have an irrational fear of digital bodies breaking...and i just don't need this good of a camera, i don't think.
-There are some pocket cameras too (Canon S100, Ricoh GRD) but it is hard for me to get past those tiny sensors.

My problem with the M43 is that I do not know how much i would like to spend or how "serious" of a camera i would need it to be. I would be willing to spend more money in the lenses and accessories because I can easily sell those and not lose much money if I wanted out of the system. I have to remind myself that I'm not going for ultimate image quality which is why I can look past the APS-C cameras. I also realized that this is mostly for snapshots, not art, and my family/friends and wouldn't care about the difference between an iphone and a D800.

-lens-wise, my cousin is providing me with a 20mm f1.7 since his Gf2 broke about a year ago and doesn't really use his M43 (has a 5d MKII anyways). I'd start with that and perhaps consider the 17mm f1.8 or 25mm f1.4 in the future, or good old 20mm f1.7, not sure. I like 50mm and 35mm a lot but 40mm ain't bad (speaking FF obviously).

-body-wise, I read that the Pen image stabilization is different and better than the mini and light versions. The Pen 3 is a better camera but the Pen 2 is cheaper. And since image quality isn't my top priority I figured I'd go with the Pen 2 and then maybe a used Pen 5 (or whatever they make) in 1-2 years or longer, not sure.

This is probably more than enough information, lol, but I thought that I would explain my thought process into why i want a digital camera, M43, and Pen 2.
 
I am asking the same question...????

I am asking the same question...????

Godfrey said:
Why are you choosing the E-P2 model? G
Click to expand...

I wondered the same thing. The EP2 came out before the E-PL1 which was the first PEN with the lesser filtering in the Low Pass (AA) filter, resulting in sharper OOC images. I was impressed by that one move, and purchased the E-PL1 to find the results noticeably sharper.

There was nothing really outstanding about the EP2 that I recall. I have been pleased with the increased sharpness of the E-PL1 and Olympus carried that process through on the weaker AA filtering in all later PENS. I'm seriously considering the E-PL5 to get that advantage plus the 16Mp sensor and latest image processor.

OH yes, and Jett... The image quality will be far better than "Good Enough. Far far better. Expect to be surprised, mayhaps!

I realize you say that budget is one of your considerations, but last time I looked, you can get a used E-PL1 or E-PL2 for less money than an EP2.
 
interesting.

I haven't looked too deeply into this system as I'm just trying to find a good value. I figured that the latest is always the "best" but not necessarily the best value.

I have thought some about the PM1 and PL2 and P3. However, most people also agree the newer Pens are noticeably sharper so maybe I should believe them. I'm just trying to not get too caught up in sharpness/image quality because the easiest solution seems to be a bigger sensor....and this isn't my main platform so I'd rather spend that extra dough on a Leica lens, lol.

Well the main reason for going Pen is because I read that the IBIS is better. Anyone notice the IBIS being an issue on the PM1/PL1/PL2?

It was kind of a tossup but honestly all these bodies are cheap. The P3 isn't that expensive either but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily. I'd go PM1/PL2 if IBIS wasn't an issue, is it? yesterday I waanted to go P3, two days ago PM1, this morning P2, right now...PL2. haha.
 
I don't have your reservations about digital cameras, and I worked with the Micro-FourThirds system for quite a while so that I know what it's capable of. Even the very first (Panasonic G1 and Olympus Pen E-P1) were very good cameras.

When I decided to pick up another body so I could use my funky adapted lenses again, I went with an E-PL1 as it was the least expensive I could find. Cost me $110. I should have gone with an E-PL2 for the ability to use a remote ... no matter, this one works fine. I've been enjoying the heck out of it fitted with my lens oddities. Today I was shooting with a Skink Pinhole fitted with an f/71 Zone Plate.

​

Learning what this 'lens' sees, finding subjects that work well with it, etc, is part of the challenge to me.

I'd let go of some of that bias and just pick up a camera, have fun with it. Once you start having fun, you might find you like it. They're not so frangible as you seem to think ... My film cameras have needed about 10x as much service as any of the digital cameras I've owned. 🙂

G
 
Best $ value, short of the new sensor....

Best $ value, short of the new sensor....

jett said:
interesting.

I haven't looked too deeply into this system as I'm just trying to find a good value. I figured that the latest is always the "best" but not necessarily the best value.

I have thought some about the PM1 and PL2 and P3. However, most people also agree the newer Pens are noticeably sharper so maybe I should believe them. I'm just trying to not get too caught up in sharpness/image quality because the easiest solution seems to be a bigger sensor....and this isn't my main platform so I'd rather spend that extra dough on a Leica lens, lol.

Well the main reason for going Pen is because I read that the IBIS is better. Anyone notice the IBIS being an issue on the PM1/PL1/PL2?

It was kind of a tossup but honestly all these bodies are cheap. The P3 isn't that expensive either but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily. I'd go PM1/PL2 if IBIS wasn't an issue, is it? yesterday I waanted to go P3, two days ago PM1, this morning P2, right now...PL2. haha.
Click to expand...

Following on Godfrey... the E-PL1 is a dynamite buy for around $100 for a good low shutter count body. All the other PENS following essentially have the same sensor/process engine. They all really only differ in controls. For instance the mini or M models are somewhat more menu driven. The P models have the best control systems and the PL models fall between.

The E-PL1 was the first improved (my call) lowpass filter (AA) offering sharper images OOC. I have done a lot of checking and it appears that all the improved sharpening on all PENS after the E-PL1 use the same lowpass AA filtering, including the OM-D and current PENS with the more MP sensor.

I think the best value is the E-PL1 at around $100. My last E-PL1, however had the newer II R 14-42 because it is smaller and faster focusing than the original 14-42 and sells for very slightly more. I would not buy the series one lens again with that in mind. It sounds like you are going a different way on the lens. So for $100 you can pretty much explore the micro 4/3 camera. The IBIS is good. I had two E-PL1 bodies.

Now, one thing I did about a year and half ago, I wanted to compare 4/3 to APSc. So alongside my E-PL1, I purchased a new Canon T3i 18Mp with kit lens.

I shoot a ton of car shows in the Spring and Summer, so color is a big issue for me.

I carried the Olympus AND the Canon for three months to all the car shows I attend... close to one a week.

My premise was that the Canon T3i was a popular camera, so I could get good resale out of it. I paid $900 for the kit right after it came out. I had about $300 invested in the E-PL1 with the version I lens. Purchased used.

I kept all my images for the car shows separate for both camera's. Bottom line and to end this tale, the Olympus simply kicked A__ on the Canon, in the areas of my concernt. That was primarily IQ plus the sharpness edge, combined with the weight savings over the bigger DSLR Canon. I might also mention that I shot Canon FF DSLR for some time. The camera's however often did not leave the house with me, nearly as much as the PEN.

I sold the Canon for $100 less than I paid, and happy to see it go. Now, keep in mind, all my shooting was daytime in good lighting conditions. So, I am not saying the Oly would have been better overall, but for my purposes and the money involved, was clear to me the Oly won out in my limited comparison. The weight drag on the Canon was huge compared to the PEN.

So, I am now tottering on the fence between a clean used OM-D, since I was an Olympus OM user for years, or the E-PL5 and legacy glass for a while, until the lens inventory matures a bit more.
 
I am so confused, can someone give me a briefing of the following cameras: PL1, PL2, PL3, PM1, P3

I'm looking for the best value but I see that there are roughly 3 tiers:
$200 and less: PL1,PL2, PM1
$250-$300: PL3
$300-$350: P3

The application is snapshots and video. The only lenses that I am considering are the Olympus 17mm f2.8/f1.8, Panasonic 20mm f1.7, and Leica 25mm f1.4. Not interested in wides, zooms, or legacy lens.

Is there a noticeable jump in image quality/noise within these cameras? (Like PL1-PL3 vs PM1 and etc.) I see snapsort but it is difficult for me to gauge which numbers are significant (e.g. color depth of 21.4 vs 20.9 sounds insignificant to me). Are they essentially the same sensor and jpeg engines?

Any difference in video besides the Maximum resolution? I do not know how much resolution is good enough so i was going to go to the camera store and shoot a video on an SD card at 1080p and then at 720p and then gauge for myself how much the difference matters. Is this okay or is running a video on the P3 at 720p not the same thing as running a video on the PL2 at 720p.

Is image stablization the same on all cameras? I read that the P's IBIS is better.

So yeah, i do not know which to go with but i'm more leaning on judging my decision on small petty things like flash, and max resolution for video, LCD swivel, and etc.
 
The E-PM1 has blazing fast AF, has a nice sleek feel and is about the cheapest you can go. All these cameras have the same sensor and images from all are very very close right up to the E-P3, epsecially once you are comparing actual prints and not 100% crops. The quality difference comes down to hair splitting IMO. It should really come down to picking the body that you like best.

Cameta Camera recently had refurbished E-PM1 kits for $205. When it comes essentially for free, the pretty decent kit zoom can be useful sometimes.

I like the little clip flash that comes with the E-PM1.

The differences in IBIS is a complicated questions, most problems reported come from using the cheap kit zoom... as in the dynamics of the lens fight the IBIS at certain frequencies/shutter speeds.

I'm still shooting an E-P1 because none of the improvements in the E-P2 and E-P3 are significant to how I shoot.

I personally like the 17/2.8 quite a bit, especially the size. I also don't shoot serious photography with it wide open very often, and for hand held candid snap shots it is plenty sharp wide open. If cost was no option, I'd probably get the new 17/1.8. The 20 is a fine sharp fast lens, but I don't like some of its behaviors. The 25, other than the size, would probably be the cream of that crop, but it is very large, heavy and expensive. (The 17/1.8 is the only lens I don't have direct experience with).

Since you are considering the P/L 25, size doesn't seem to be a critical metric in your decision, so you might want to also include the Sigma 19 and 30 to your lens list. AFter getting the Sigma 30 it has become probably my most used lens. The 19 is supposed to be quite good to, but I have no experience with it. You can get these lenses for $100-150. These are native m43 lenses.

Someone recently posted that they found a deal on an E-P3 w/17/2.8 for under $450. I don't know where, but if you decide that this lens would work for you, it sounds like an amazing deal if you can find it!

Have fun!

I bought into m43 because I thought the Pen was a cute little system... then it became my system and sold off all my Canon gear.
 
One more try here....

One more try here....

jett said:
I am so confused, can someone give me a briefing of the following cameras: PL1, PL2, PL3, PM1, P3

I'm looking for the best value but I see that there are roughly 3 tiers:
$200 and less: PL1,PL2, PM1
$250-$300: PL3
$300-$350: P3

The application is snapshots and video. The only lenses that I am considering are the Olympus 17mm f2.8/f1.8, Panasonic 20mm f1.7, and Leica 25mm f1.4. Not interested in wides, zooms, or legacy lens.

Is there a noticeable jump in image quality/noise within these cameras? (Like PL1-PL3 vs PM1 and etc.) I see snapsort but it is difficult for me to gauge which numbers are significant (e.g. color depth of 21.4 vs 20.9 sounds insignificant to me). Are they essentially the same sensor and jpeg engines?

Any difference in video besides the Maximum resolution? I do not know how much resolution is good enough so i was going to go to the camera store and shoot a video on an SD card at 1080p and then at 720p and then gauge for myself how much the difference matters. Is this okay or is running a video on the P3 at 720p not the same thing as running a video on the PL2 at 720p.

Is image stablization the same on all cameras? I read that the P's IBIS is better.

So yeah, i do not know which to go with but i'm more leaning on judging my decision on small petty things like flash, and max resolution for video, LCD swivel, and etc.
Click to expand...

Jett... I am going to say this gently, and with respect for your need to analyze the choice to death.

But you are. The difficulties you are faced with are myriad unless you do an in depth review on each camera. Plus, you cannot go anywhere and test these camera's in hand.

The price range is actually from $100 to $400 for all the models you list.

I don't think there is any difference at all in the IBIS for any of these models.

The weaker AA filter applies the same in all the models.

There is no change in the Sensor and I think the image processor is the same for all models.

The E-P3 (correct name) will undoubtedly have a better control system, and rely a bit less on diving into menus.

You seem particularly interest in the Video, so I am linking to a specifications page at Steves-Digicams. He does a very comprehensive spec list and show a lot on the Movie/Video mode. However, he is not so enlightening on the other models, but you can surely look there on his site at the other models. These models came out so fast that some of them NEVER got a full review on any site. Here is the link which will outline the video specs on the E-P3:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/olympus/e-p3/specifications-151.html

Now, here is a purely monetary decision I might be inclined to make.

First, at the bottom price (I am using $100-125, I just sold an excellent E-PL1 WITH the improved zoom for $200), you can surely get a good used E-PL1, an E-pl2 with a hunt, or an E-PM1. I suspect as thorough as you are in you research, if you get the E-PM1 you will surely sour on this one as it is heavily menu drive. No mode or control wheels.

In any of those events you can test your choice, and if it's wrong, you will be able to get your $100 back, plus perhaps another $25 or so. This is body only.

The reason I particularly would shy from the E-P3 are price and the knocks on the "aging sensor" as many reviewers put it.

I buy and sell a lot of photography equipment (mostly film) on eBay. It is my "go to" source for pricing. Traffic is good and prices are mainstream.

The E-P3 is averaging, for the body only, about $375 to $400 from sellers with perfect feedback, and again a lot of traffic in that model.

At that point you are justifiably close to the E-PL5 or the E-PM2. In fact the Olympus web site is already discounting the E-PM2 down to $499 with lens. You can sell that version II R lens easily for $75 to $100 ($125 on a good day).

So if you rationalize a $375 E-P3, why would you not dig up another $125 and get the latest Sony 16Mp sensor, the articulated lcd (on the E-PL5) and the improved image quality of the OM-D EM5.????

Isn't it just amazing how the decisions keep running the price up, until we just burst, throw and fit, and buy the $100 solution (resulting in a totally frustrating experience) Granted you can get the $100 back, but you may end up with a bad taste for Olympus, and that would be totally unfair to the company and the m4/3 system.

Me going for the E-PL5 or the best used EM5 I can find. They're starting to show up under $800 with lens on eBay rather regularly. (very low shutter counts).... The "buyer remorse" people are starting to show up, and I suspect that's not for problems with the camera's but the expense up front.

So... Help the video specs help a bit.

And I think you are looking for too many differences in these camera models. They mostly changed in styling, and controls.....

Good Luck
 
Regarding the menus in the E-PM1. I briefly considered buying one when it came out. Was worried about the lack of dials, but read the manual and figured out what I had to do to access the settings I used most... then went to the store and after an hour or two exercising, I decided it wouldn't inhibit *my* photography.

I didn't end up buying one... mostly out of laziness, but I almost bought the E-PM1 for my daughter's birthday last week. She ended up deciding she'd rather just take my Canon S-95 for the much smaller size... so now I don't have a pocket camera anymore.

While I am concentrating on taking photos and not upgrading gear, my current plan is too just stick to my E-P1 until the OMD-II is released and I can get a killer deal on a used OMD. 🙂
 
kuzano, not to invalidate anything you said but there is a an E-P3 for $310 on keh.com in EX condition (last time I checked).
 
Other great deals:

Black refurb at Adorama:

http://www.adorama.com/IOMEP3B14.html?gclid=CPDKl5vC-rUCFetFMgodCQgASw

Silver refurb on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-PEN...892542?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item460cc427be

Bundled with Oly 17 is pretty compelling price IMO if you want the 17. E-P3 will be nicest of 12MP sensor cameras and would bring me significantly more JOY in shooting than a cheap-a$$ E-PL1.

I guess an alternate case can be made for buying E-PL1 and Pan 20 for around the same price, but I've handled both bodies and used both lenses and would personally rather be out shooting the E-P3 w/17.

Anyway, this is just more info.

I"ve already suggested Cameta as a source for cheap refurb E-PM1 kits, but they also have cheap E-PL1 bodies:

http://www.cameta.com/Olympus-PEN-E-PL1-Micro-4-3-Digital-Camera-Body-Black-Factory-Demo-57826.cfm

I've bought refurbished goods from them and they always come "as-new."
 
Not surprising

Not surprising

jett said:
kuzano, not to invalidate anything you said but there is a an E-P3 for $310 on keh.com in EX condition (last time I checked).
Click to expand...

KEH does come up with some great deals now and then. Also, my pricing on eBay was average over the last 60 days sold bodies only, so there may have been some less expensive there too.

Not trying to convince you in any direction... I mentioned the low end option and the high end option. I'm still convinced the high end choice of an E-PL5 body only when one shows up for $450 used (sooner than later) will be the call I would make.

Again, hope you meet your expectations....

BTW, not being a video person at all, the Cheap A$$ E-pl1 met all my expectations and I don't pay extra in any event for cosmetic appeal. I've shot some ugly A$$ camera's in my day and gotten some very good results. (not a shot at you Jett)
 
Whew. Too much analysis for me.

I bought the E-PL1 body because it was inexpensive. Far as I'm concerned, they all do the job so similarly there was no real reason to spend much more money, at least not for me.

Should have bought an E-PL2, though, as that allows using a remote release. I'll likely look for one of those eventually.

G
 
kuzano, no offense meant by my "Cheap A$$ E-pl1" comment. Sorry if it came off that way.

🙂

Balancing everything is a personal choice. I've shot many cheap cameras, but very few "ugly" cameras... the artist in me is just too attracted to aesthetically pleasing objects... and cameras are objects as well as tools.

For the record, when I bought my discontinued E-P1, it was much cheaper than a new E-PL1. Prices fluctuate much more than aesthetics... but as I said, since the IQ from all these cameras is so close, someone should choose the camera that they like best... I think that is sound advice... whether or not that ends up being one of the cameras I would choose or not.

Best!
 
No problem... quite funny actually.

No problem... quite funny actually.

mh2000 said:
kuzano, no offense meant by my "Cheap A$$ E-pl1" comment. Sorry if it came off that way.

🙂

Balancing everything is a personal choice. I've shot many cheap cameras, but very few "ugly" cameras... the artist in me is just too attracted to aesthetically pleasing objects... and cameras are objects as well as tools.

For the record, when I bought my discontinued E-P1, it was much cheaper than a new E-PL1. Prices fluctuate much more than aesthetics... but as I said, since the IQ from all these cameras is so close, someone should choose the camera that they like best... I think that is sound advice... whether or not that ends up being one of the cameras I would choose or not.

Best!
Click to expand...

Very much consistent with the reviews I have received from the ladies I have dated and had relationships over the years.... Ole Cheap A$$ Kuze!

It's all good.🙄
 
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