M246 or M10?

[redefine]

Sorry if this is been posted/discussed before.

I'm a M9 Mono shooter, I bought it many years ago and loved the camera.

Recently(i know!) I had the chance to try the M246 and wow it blew my mind. I feel in love with the speed of operation, the bright finder, the ISO capabilities (shot something at iso8000 and still looking great!) so I'm selling my M9 Mono to fund an M246.

Since i'm in for an upgrade I thought maybe I could consider an M10 instead (more modern, smaller body, newer tech) but obviously it would be a colour camera. I'm sure a lot of yall here may have both those cameras how do they compare in BW?

Can the M10 still shoot clean images at ISO8000 or even 12500?

 

[JMQ]

M10 monochrom?

 

[Freakscene]

Why not get an M10M? If you want to shoot monochrome, get a Monochrom. You can make excellent monochrome photos from colour M10 files, but it’s more work, and in my experience getting the tonality right is a lot more work after that.

I’ve had all the Leica Monochroms and the MM and 246 were equally but differently flawed. The M10M is the first really mature product they have produced.

Marty

 

[Ccoppola82]

I’m loving the 246.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

80-90% of my M10-P images get converted to B&W. What else do you need to know?

 

[redefine]

As much as I would love an M10M, it's way too pricey for me right now - probably I will upgrade in a couple of years when prices settle down.

I'm selling my M9M and with few extra hundreds I can get an M246 basically...

I just wanted to ask you guys how the M10 files are at ISO8000 or ISO12500. As I mentioned, I had great results with the M246 so I was curious to know how the 2 compares.

 

[a.noctilux]

Redefine,
Long story of Monochrom lover as me ...

I had M10 (2017, still use in color) before M246 at that time too expensive.
While I still use Monochrom (MM1) which is a very nice Monochrom for me never surpassed, ...M246 is more modern first Monochrom which can show color filtered rendering before the picture with LV or LCD.


For me, I'm happy to use along M10 + Monochrom (MM1 or M246).


If I had to choose, it would be M246 over M10 (I've converted 10 KISO to b&w, nice but lack of "B&W mindset" of Monochrom in picture taking "real time").


As side note, I don't need the increased resolution of M10M , I see that the MM1 with 18MB can give already 4 x 5 "400 ISO film rendering/resolution", that's enough for me.


Red filter use can be tricky with MM1, but easier with M246, see this thread
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127343

Arnaud

 

[Freakscene]

Red filter use can be tricky with MM1, but easier with M246, see this thread
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127343

The quantitative data Dante Stella presented here: https://themachineplanet.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/the-leica-monochrom-typ-246-and-filters/ shows the difference in colour response between the MM and 246 is tiny, and that the MM and 246 both have major problems with red filtration.

This is why Leica only makes yellow, orange and green filters for the Monochroms.

If you have an MM that works well, I’d keep it and put cash aside for the M10M in a couple of years. The 246 disappointed me, particularly in that the live view was hopeless, and that the better high ISO performance did not maintain the image tonality like the MM did.

Marty

 

[redefine]

The M10M will take a while to drop, we talking about years.

Nothing wrong with my M9 Mono but I do feel like getting something more responsive with some extra megapixels and better iso. the LV is not a must for me although I find it helpful for exposure sometimes.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Mt_Vernon_Ultron_Red_filter_Monochrom by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

I use a Red R60 filter with my M Monochrom often, for the past 8 years. I have never had a problem.

L1000008 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

Picture number 8 with the camera, 8 years ago.

And number 47.

L1000047 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

Jupiter-3, red filter, wide-open.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

M10 BW conversions are subjective likings. GR, Fuji, Olympus and even Canon files are conversions are just as good as M10 BW conversion, because it is nothing but subjectivity.
While Monochrome sensors are not. If you are about Insta and FB, it is not important. But every Flickr image uploaded in large size screams this diffrence as obvious.
IMsO 🙂.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The M10M will take a while to drop, we talking about years.

Nothing wrong with my M9 Mono but I do feel like getting something more responsive with some extra megapixels and better iso. the LV is not a must for me although I find it helpful for exposure sometimes.

Does your M Monochrom (Model 10760, same number as the DCS760M) have the new sensor it it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiPdxAqTU8

After Thorsten's Video- maybe you could trade even for an M246. The M246 went back to using 12-bit pixels. The CCD based M Monochrom uses 14-bits per pixel.

 

[redefine]

Thanks for the inputs!

Yeah my M9M has the new sensor in it (CCD: 53) and is been serviced by Wetzlar 10 days ago so it's sparkling new. I put it on eBay for 'market price' but it doesn't seems to get too much attention.

I was aware of Thorsten video and many are saying now the M9M will be even more than a cult - i strongly disagree. I do love the camera don't get me wrong but I feel like Thorsten has more of an emotional attachment to it - in fact he states he shoots in color and convert bw.

I am straight bw shooter but sometimes I do shoot color and the reason why a normal M10 just popped into my mind is because of the price drop in the market...

But i feel I will stick to M246, I will get it as soon as I sell my M9M.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

have you looked into selling the M Monochrom on consignment, or as a trade-in with one of the stores that sells the M246 used?

I don't trust Ebay with a big ticket item from an individual seller anymore: the rules are stacked against you. With the attention the CCD camera is getting, a store might attract more attention.

 

[willie_901]

...

I just wanted to ask you guys how the M10 files are at ISO8000 or ISO12500. As I mentioned, I had great results with the M246 so I was curious to know how the 2 compares.

Here's some data for some M242, 262 and M10 cameras. These data indicate shadow region technical image quality as ISO increases. Shadow regions have the lowest exposure which means those regions have the lowest signal-to-noise ratio. The M10 bodies perform best in this test. Of note is the Type 262. The noise level for this camera is pseudo-ISO invariant (increasing analog signal gain - camera ISO setting -does not improve SNR).

These data compare low light sensitivity for the M10 and M Monochrome ,Type 246. The Type 246 has about 1/3 stop more low light sensitivity.

Finally, these data compare the input-referred, read-noise levels. Input-referred read noise represents the photosites' analog-signals' noise levels before digitization. This is a log 2 plot. At ISO 6400 the M10 variants have ~1 to ~2 stops less analog noise than the M 240, 242 and Type 246. There is no information about signal levels.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I found the "Sensor Heat Map" interesting.

M246 vs M Monochrom

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...uffix=12,cameraC=Leica M Monochrom,suffixC=14

M10M vs M Monochrom

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...uffix=14,cameraC=Leica M Monochrom,suffixC=14


https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm

I use 4x SD cards in the M Monochrom. When using higher speed cards, the pattern noise/banding showed up in ISO 10,000 shots. Did some tests- stuck with the 4x Sandisk cards for 8 years now.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

M10 BW conversions are subjective likings. ...

Two of the images in the group below were taken with my M9M. The others were B&W conversions from DNG/TIF files shot from one of my "color" digital M cameras. They all underwent the same level of processing in post. Can you "subjectively" tell me which ones came from the M9M?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The picture of the Light House shows the conversion artifacts of the Bayer color filter, I think it is a conversion based on the edges.

The images of the Water Lilies do not show conversion artifacts. I think they are Monochrome.

The image of the trees- I think is a conversion, some of the edges look sharp. But that can be from sharpening, or other processing. Hard to tell.

 

[redefine]

I spoke with the Leica store in London for a trade in and to be honest the trade-in for the M9M is quite low, less than 2K.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

A repeat from before with the title removed, pretty easy to see which is from the M Monochrom and which is from the M9 or not?