A cautionary tale about buying on Ebay from Japan

Returning to caveat emptor, the buyer has to be educated enough in the subject matter to make an informed decision. Camera bodies of the early electronics phase are not aging well, regardless of make and model. On top of that, The availability of spare parts and competent repairmen has been reduced to basically none. The few capable repairmen justifiably charge top dollar for this work and often won't warrant the repair. You are more likely to have one work for a short time and then fail, or even not survive the shipment. In other words, buying early-model electronic cameras is a crap shoot. If you purchase one expecting it to be a capable and reliable body you are setting yourself up for a disappointment. These days, when I buy an old camera, I limit myself to a fully mechanical body, preferably one that sold in large enough numbers that there is a chance to acquire replacement parts. Even then you won't always win. Having recently purchased a Kardon camera with the Ektar lens, and immediately sending it to Youxin Ye for an overhaul, I was forced to accept that the CLA camera worked perfectly, it would not shoot at 1/1000 second as sometime in the past a component necessary for that function was removed. These cameras are old, and those that contain electronics include cutting-edge technology for their time. Technology that often doesn't age well.
 
I’ve been fairly happy with all my eBay purchases from Japan. Gotten several Nikon and canon rangefinders and Pentax SLR’s from various sellers. Ive found the descriptions and photos to generally de accurate for sellers who sell decent amounts. (But make sure you read them). Worst issues I’ve had. One camera had a broken tab on the body cover. Seller gave me a credit to buy a new one and I actually have a Pentax KX that arrived while I was on vacation last week that’s cosmetically very nice and the meter work but the battery cover is seized. A I don’t want to chew up the slot being too aggressive. Not an expensive camera but I’m pretty sure I can pop off the bottom plate easily to clean up from an old battery leak. Obviously not too bad since there are working batteries in there at present. There was a video of shutter speeds and the light meter working posted but they obviously didn’t take that cover off before putting it in inventory. Overall I’ve found them helpful and courteous.
 
The thing that is not talked about is tax. In the EU there is 20% tax applied from outside the EU (including from the UK now) plus processing fees for the tax plus tax on the processing fees. You only have a vague idea how much something will finally cost.

You only buy from Japan (or outside the EU) when it is the only place, but Japan obviously has a lot of special stuff , certainly in large format and Barnack clones.
 
Tangential question:

I see a lot of supposedly rare or limited edition items from Hong Kong. I presume there's a good chance a lot of these are forgeries?
 
CP93 said:
Tangential question:

I see a lot of supposedly rare or limited edition items from Hong Kong. I presume there's a good chance a lot of these are forgeries?
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Not necessarily. Before the Beijing crackdown, there was a podcast called The Classic Lenses Podcast. One of the three hosts, Perry Ge, lived in Hong Kong, and he always discussed the vibrant Hong Kong market in classic lenses, particularly rare and valuable types. There were also a number of businesses that could adapt those lenses to other than their original mounts. While forgeries are always possible, assuming that a lens is fake because it is from HK might be a bad bet.
 
My three primary rules:
- What has the seller not shown? Can't see the mirror? No clear shot of the ground glass? No view through the optical finder? Move on!
- Always check the seller's other items. Just the one camera, but lots of sneakers, trading cards, action figures, etc.? Again move on! The seller probably knows nothing about photo equipment, and I'm not taking the risk.
-Estate items. "From the estate of a professional photographer who put the camera into storage when he retired twenty years ago. It was working fine then, but I don't know how to test it." Run screaming...
 
I have been buying on eBay for some years now. Four Leicas and a lot of lenses. I have bought from HK, Japan, the US, Russia, Ukraine and Turkey. All the sellers have been good to deal with and the products I have bought have shown up exactly as described. But I am not trying to skin anyone. I am willing to pay a fair price for an item and I buy from sellers whose track records are good and not just recently good. Buying from eBay requires the exercise of common sense. That helps a lot.

And enough with this racist stuff about Asians. Asians have not monopolized the market of crooks. Crooks are everywhere. And so are good people, much in the majority.
 
jc031699 said:
Yes me too. I have had great luck. I've bought some lenses with minor problems that I could fix or ignore, and a Canon IVSB2 in great user condition with a little top plate corrosion. The text descriptions have been extremely accurate and forthright. I simply ignore the boilerplate grading score, and look at the price and the details. They usually even indicate whether described defects are predicted to affect image quality. The packing is pristine and precise. Same is true for KEH, Roberts, Blue Moon. In contrast, this has not been the case for many private sellers located potentially anywhere in the world.
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In Japan the descriptions like "very good" excellent" "near mint" etc almost always only describe the physical appearance not optical unless this is explicitly included by the wording. This seems to be more a cultural thing rather than an attempt to deceive. In Japan local buyers are very particular about the state of lenses etc they will purchase. Many Japanese will not buy equipment that shows sign of wear, so the sellers will in general rate their lenses based on physical appearance as this is important locally. In my experience most Japanese sellers under-rate not over-rate their sale items in such descriptions for this reason and tend to price accordingly. (Great for me as I have a high tolerance for a few wear marks on my equipment). For them this avoids issues with local buyers and they do it I am sure, in the knowledge that many overseas buyers are not quite so picky - especially if the price is right.

As to fungus etc, much of Japan has very hot, sultry, wet summers and fungus is therefore endemic. Most local buyers would expect there to be a high chance of fungus in most lenses. So, sellers tend to deal with this separately in descriptions to make it explicit.

In any event it always pays to use your own eyes read and look carefully and make your own mind up about the risk you will take. But I have to say that I have seldom been disappointed in my purchases.
 
"Mint" should mean used (or at least taken out of its box) but zero use marks. And I mean zero. This is literally what "mint" means. "New in box" should mean what it says.

Once again it seems that the intent here is to confuse and obfuscate. And it's not a language barrier issue because they do the same in their native-language (in Japanese in my case) listings. A Contax with scuff marks and very obvious visible to the naked eye fungus inside the lens listed as "Mint, new and probably unopened" (my translation) ... nice save with the "probably" there Mr. Seller...

Basically, I am tired of this arms race where a lot (not all!) of sellers try to obfuscate the condition of things, and then somehow we still have people going:
"Oh you just have to read the description and then some tea leaves. Also download and blow up all the product pictures to 200% and play with the curves in Photoshop to show the defects." And then if you get bit anyway it's "Aw shucks!" ... we used to call this sort of transaction "Getting a bum deal..." instead of making excuses for the sellers whose intent clearly is - if not out-right deception then obfuscation in the name of profits
 
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And I'm not convinced of the cultural angle, at least in the proper shops if an item is marked as beautiful item (美品 - beautiful product - sort of the Japanese equivalent to mint) - the description encompasses both the appearance and the functionality. I have never seen an item labelled as such that was broken or had fungus. If it has that label you will get top-shelf stuff, of course then, these items are priced accordingly. I am okay with that!

I am not okay with something being palmed off as something it isn't and again this is not a Japan issue but an issue with the camera market as a whole where you get more and more scammers and scalpers who basically buy stuff in bulk - dress it up and then try to resell it with outrageous descriptions and the prices to match.

There used to be an unscrupulous company here offering seminars on "Camera selling" focusing on online sales. Said seminar included giving the would-be-camera-salesmen and women premade templates. This became quite infamous among photographers in Tokyo because buying from a seller with such a template was an almost surefire way to get screwed.

How much of that was intentional and how much of it was simply not knowing, who knows. All I know is that it is impossible to learn to reliably assess a cameras or lenses functionality and condition after a 3-4 hour seminar...

I would not be surprised if this idea has since spread, because I noticed a lot of dubious German and other EU/US sellers popping up on eBay in recent years as well.
 
TenEleven said:
"Mint" should mean used (or at least taken out of its box) but zero use marks. And I mean zero. This is literally what "mint" means. "New in box" should mean what it says.

Once again it seems that the intent here is to confuse and obfuscate. And it's not a language barrier issue because they do the same in their native-language (in Japanese in my case) listings. A Contax with scuff marks and very obvious visible to the naked eye fungus inside the lens listed as "Mint, new and probably unopened" (my translation) ... nice save with the "probably" there Mr. Seller...

Basically, I am tired of this arms race where a lot (not all!) of sellers try to obfuscate the condition of things, and then somehow we still have people going:
"Oh you just have to read the description and then some tea leaves. Also download and blow up all the product pictures to 200% and play with the curves in Photoshop to show the defects." And then if you get bit anyway it's "Aw shucks!" ... we used to call this sort of transaction "Getting a bum deal..." instead of making excuses for the sellers whose intent clearly is - if not out-right deception then obfuscation in the name of profits
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Oh,no, advertisers being dishonest?? I am shocked, shocked. eBay, exercise critical thinking (yeah, it is a must not a maybe or a would be nice) and caution. We are supposed to be grownups here. Things are not true just because someone said them. Sheesh. ;o) If someone's ads are obviously false he has done you a favor. You know to avoid him.

Check the eBay track record and goods sold and for how long. Buy with return privileges unless you know absolutely the goods are right. You don't know the goods are absolutely right. And I will pass this on as it has helped me, be decent. Most folks are not crooks unless you have been chasing and lowballing shysters. And if you have, who is the crook?
 
boojum said:
Oh,no, advertisers being dishonest?? I am shocked, shocked. eBay, exercise critical thinking (yeah, it is a must not a maybe or a would be nice) and caution. We are supposed to be grownups here. Things are not true just because someone said them. Sheesh. ;o) If someone's ads are obviously false he has done you a favor. You know to avoid him.

Check the eBay track record and goods sold and for how long. Buy with return privileges unless you know absolutely the goods are right. You don't know the goods are absolutely right. And I will pass this on as it has helped me, be decent. Most folks are not crooks unless you have been chasing and lowballing shysters. And if you have, who is the crook?
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Let's start with the basics:
How do you assess the condition of an item online without taking it into your hands? You can't.

You have to take the seller on their word. (And pictures.)

This has nothing to do with being an adult or the buyers intelligence. I have been buying and trading camera gear for decades. This is especially true if it's a rare item and there are not many options. And to be clear - I have zero issues buying questionable stuff - if it is priced accordingly! I know it's a gamble and that's on me.

Furthermore, eBay return policy is very hit-and-miss with a tendency to get worse in recent years. Sometimes they make the seller take it back without even so much of a hint of an issue - at other times it ended up being an uphill battle which more than once ended with me, despite doing my "due diligence" having to eat crow.
 
TenEleven said:
Let's start with the basics:
How do you assess the condition of an item online without taking it into your hands? You can't.

You have to take the seller on their word. (And pictures.)

This has nothing to do with being an adult or the buyers intelligence. I have been buying and trading camera gear for decades. This is especially true if it's a rare item and there are not many options. And to be clear - I have zero issues buying questionable stuff - if it is priced accordingly! I know it's a gamble and that's on me.

Furthermore, eBay return policy is very hit-and-miss with a tendency to get worse in recent years. Sometimes they make the seller take it back without even so much of a hint of an issue - at other times it ended up being an uphill battle which more than once ended with me, despite doing my "due diligence" having to eat crow.
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Your experience is yours. mine is mine. Yours is more extensive than mine. But remember, you know going in that the item is not going to be in your hand unless you buy it. There has to be some level of trust involved at each end. I have bought four Leicas and at least eight lenses. All were as advertised. I guess I was born under a bright star and the moon is in the second house. I can only relate what I know, my experience. Anything else would be hearsay.
 
The first and only time I've bought camera gear from eBay was a Pentax lens, years ago. It came from an American seller who had a range of old lenses and cameras. When the package didn't arrive at all, a lot of back and forth emails revealed that that he had put the wrong lens in someone else's shipment, and had no idea where the lens that was supposed to go to the other customer went. He thought that I had received the other lens as well, but nothing came. Fortunately, the other customer returned the lens, and the seller shipped it to me. Never going through that again.
 
boojum said:
Oh,no, advertisers being dishonest?? I am shocked, shocked.
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boojum said:
Things are not true just because someone said them.
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boojum said:
I will pass this on as it has helped me, be decent. Most folks are not crooks unless you have been chasing and lowballing shysters. And if you have, who is the crook?
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Some good points here, if somewhat bluntly stated.

Being me-myself, I cannot resist adding a few thoughts entirely my own.

First para. That line was used in a movie I saw again (for the 5th or 50th or even 500th time, I've lost count) last week. By a character who happened to be one of the biggest crooks in Casablanca. Should we suggest to Ebay that they "arrest the usual suspects"??

Second para. This contradicts the first principle of almost all (excepting maybe one or two) politicians. If you repeat a lie long enough, in time the dumb voters will believe it's true.

Third para. Bottom feeders are fish and fish go about in schools. When food is scarce they feed off each other. Like me, the OP is obviously a fisherman - so he knows. We know.

With Ebay youse pays your money and youse takes youse chances. As someone I used to watch a to on TV in the '70s. That young man made a lot of sense in his own earthy winkly way. Is ho still around? I hope so. (Google here I come...)

Or as a greatly talented and underrated English actor said in 'Pimpernel Smith' (a WW2 movie I cannot recommend enough to anyone who wants to enjoy something enjoyable as well as timely and critical), "Know your enemy!" A little knowledge, to which can be applied an equal amount of basic critical thinking, can be a dangerous thing, but it can also work on our behalf with potential honey traps like Ebay.

All this entirely meant tongue in cheek, of course. Entirely for fun.
 
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