Luftwaffen-Eigentum. Is this model authentic?

[christopherswink]

I have acquired a 1938 IIIa serial number 273063 with an Fl. No. 38081 and Luftwaffen-Eigentum inscribed on the back of the top plate. I have been told it is a fake engraving on a real IIIa as the Fl number is not 38078 or 38079 as well as the inscribed font is not what Leica used. This model came from a very large collection of over a few thousand mint to near mint high ens cameras from the late 1800’s to the present day. It is possible that this person possibly purchased a counterfeit in his years of collecting and did not know. I have checked the my Collectors Checklist of Leica Cameras, Lenses, and Accessories. And it seems that Leica did ship some IIIa models to the Luftwaffen between 1938 and 1940. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am waiting to here back on production and shipment dates on this model from the Leica Archives. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could help in this matter. Best. Chris

 

[splitimageview]

Email Classic Store Leica, they are quick to respond: classicstore.wetzlar (at) leica-camera.com

 

[christopherswink]

Email Classic Store Leica, they are quick to respond: classicstore.wetzlar (at) leica-camera.com

Thank you. I appreciate it. Is there anyway to edit a thread title? Looks like my title is suffering from dyslexia. I could have sworn I did not type it like it posted.

 

[splitimageview]

Edited!

 

[christopherswink]

Edited!

Thank you!

 

[Photar]

FWIW: There are only three IIIa cameras listed in the Cane list of LTM cameras with military engravings. The serial numbers are 315353 to 315355 ( the earliest serial numbers in the whole list). However, as far as I understand, it is not clear whether these three cameras have original military engravings. Fl. No. 38081 is not mentioned in the list.

 

[christopherswink]

FWIW: There are only three IIIa cameras listed in the Cane list of LTM cameras with military engravings. The serial numbers are 315353 to 315355 ( the earliest serial numbers in the whole list). However, as far as I understand, it is not clear whether these three cameras have original military engravings. Fl. No. 38081 is not mentioned in the list.

Thank you. All the info I can get is helpful.

 

[splitimageview]

For some reason my gut says this is a genuine article. Really interested in what reply you receive...you might also inquire of Jim Lager.

Does the lens have an engraving?

Below is a Luftwaffe camera which I listed on ebay about 15 years ago.

As you can see, it was an original wartime camera but was upgraded at Leica to a IIIc sync. As part of the upgrade the camera received vulcanite, and they retained the original wartime engravings.

LE_3 by robertjag, on Flickr

LE_2 by robertjag, on Flickr

LE_1 by robertjag, on Flickr

 

[christopherswink]

For some reason my gut says this is a genuine article. Really interested in what reply you receive...you might also inquire of Jim Lager.

Does the lens have an engraving?

Below is a Luftwaffe camera which I listed on ebay about 15 years ago.

As you can see, it was an original wartime camera but was upgraded at Leica to a IIIc sync. As part of the upgrade the camera received vulcanite, and they retained the original wartime engravings.

LE_3 by robertjag, on Flickr

LE_2 by robertjag, on Flickr

LE_1 by robertjag, on Flickr

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your response. I know the SNr. falls outside of the normal range. And the Fl. number is not the standard 38078 or 38079. However I have found there was a Luftwaffe Werknummer (Manufacture Number) of 38081. It is associated with the JG 54 unit.

 

[christopherswink]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your response. I know the SNr. falls outside of the normal range. And the Fl. number is not the standard 38078 or 38079. However I have found there was a Luftwaffe Werknummer (Manufacture Number) of 38081. It is associated with the JG 54 unit.

I am not sure how to get ahold of James Lager. And no. The lens does not have an inscription. No serial number on it. And I don’t want to disassemble this lens to look for a SNr.

 

[splitimageview]

try jlager100 at yahoo

Good luck!

 

[caninemoshpit]

I have acquired a 1938 IIIa serial number 273063 with an Fl. No. 38081 and Luftwaffen-Eigentum inscribed on the back of the top plate. I have been told it is a fake engraving on a real IIIa as the Fl number is not 38078 or 38079 as well as the inscribed font is not what Leica used. This model came from a very large collection of over a few thousand mint to near mint high ens cameras from the late 1800’s to the present day. It is possible that this person possibly purchased a counterfeit in his years of collecting and did not know. I have checked the my Collectors Checklist of Leica Cameras, Lenses, and Accessories. And it seems that Leica did ship some IIIa models to the Luftwaffen between 1938 and 1940. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am waiting to here back on production and shipment dates on this model from the Leica Archives. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could help in this matter. Best. Chris View attachment 4887162View attachment 4887163View attachment 4887164View attachment 4887165View attachment 4887166

The lens has a serial number on the front in the black paint ring. It is in plain sight there. Just too un-detailed to read. It is often missed on these collapsible Elmars.

Also, I'm with Robert here on this possibly being genuine.
I find it pretty typical that on both his camera and yours, the letters that appear twice ( U, T and E in Luftwaffen - eigentum) are very slightly different. Those engravings were done by hand and a forger would probably have succeeded in getting them exactly similar, or not that similar at all.
The slight amount in which they differ, makes me think they were engraved by the same person.

 

[splitimageview]

Looks like 187616, produced 1933.

 

[Vince Lupo]

Hey there Chris - I checked my copy of Jim Lager’s excellent ‘Wehrmacht Leica’ book and he says a few things (well more than a few things) about the Luftwaffe cameras:

First, the FL (Flieger) inventory numbers used were only 38078 and 38079. No mention at all of 38081. BTW I find that top FL lettering looks a bit odd, at least relative to other Luftwaffe cameras (I’ve owned at least three BTW).

Second, the III and IIIa models were supplied to the Luftwaffe between August and November 1939. The first shipment was August 26, 1939.

Finally, the earliest serial number he has listed is 338476, which is a IIIa. So the serial number on the camera you have is obviously nowhere near this number.

So as far as the information that Jim Lager has in this book, your camera doesn’t seem to be correct. But to be absolutely certain I’d contact Jim Lager (the email address I have is jlager@bellatlantic.net but that might be an old address). Please do not take my word for it - I’m just some random guy on the internet. Conversely I do hope that you hear back from Leica themselves, as they’d certainly have delivery records. Please keep us all in the loop!

 

[christopherswink]

try jlager100 at yahoo

Good luck!

Thank you.

Hey there Chris - I checked my copy of Jim Lager’s excellent ‘Wehrmacht Leica’ book and he says a few things (well more than a few things) about the Luftwaffe cameras:

First, the FL (Flieger) inventory numbers used were only 38078 and 38079. No mention at all of 38081.

Second, the III and IIIa models were supplied to the Luftwaffe between August and November 1939. The first shipment was August 26, 1939.

Finally, the earliest serial number he has listed is 338476, which is a IIIa. So the serial number on the camera you have is obviously nowhere near this number.

So as far as the information that Jim Lager has in this book, your camera doesn’t seem to be correct. But to be absolutely certain I’d contact Jim Lager (the email address I have is jlager@bellatlantic.net but that might be an old address). Conversely I do hope that you hear back from Leica themselves, as they’d certainly have delivery records.

Thanks for your comment. I did receive an email from Leica this morning. It was shipped to an unknown destination in Munich on March 9, 1938. And that the Fl number does not match any number in any of their books nor has it been in any auctions in the past. I also heard back from Jim Lager this morning. In verbatim he stated that in his opinion it is falsified (fake) and that the creator tried to get as close to the Fl numbers 38078 and 38079. Mystery solved.

 

[christopherswink]

Email Classic Store Leica, they are quick to respond: classicstore.wetzlar (at) leica-camera.com

I did. Thank you.

 

[christopherswink]

The lens has a serial number on the front in the black paint ring. It is in plain sight there. Just too un-detailed to read. It is often missed on these collapsible Elmars.

Also, I'm with Robert here on this possibly being genuine.
I find it pretty typical that on both his camera and yours, the letters that appear twice ( U, T and E in Luftwaffen - eigentum) are very slightly different. Those engravings were done by hand and a forger would probably have succeeded in getting them exactly similar, or not that similar at all.
The slight amount in which they differ, makes me think they were engraved by the same person.

I need to get my magnifying glass out now. I have already written it off as a fake.

 

[Vince Lupo]

Thank you.

Thanks for your comment. I did receive an email from Leica this morning. It was shipped to an unknown destination in Munich on March 9, 1938. And that the Fl number does not match any number in any of their books nor has it been in any auctions in the past. I also heard back from Jim Lager this morning. In verbatim he stated that in his opinion it is falsified (fake) and that the creator tried to get as close to the Fl numbers 38078 and 38079. Mystery solved.

Sorry Chris I was editing my comment likely just as you replied!

Ah too bad — but I suppose on the bright side you have a nice Leica that you can use with reckless abandon (well not too reckless!) and not worry about using a rare collectible.

 

[splitimageview]

Thanks for the updates!

 

[christopherswink]

The lens has a serial number on the front in the black paint ring. It is in plain sight there. Just too un-detailed to read. It is often missed on these collapsible Elmars.

Also, I'm with Robert here on this possibly being genuine.
I find it pretty typical that on both his camera and yours, the letters that appear twice ( U, T and E in Luftwaffen - eigentum) are very slightly different. Those engravings were done by hand and a forger would probably have succeeded in getting them exactly similar, or not that similar at all.
The slight amount in which they differ, makes me think they were engraved by the same person.

very good eye! I will need to get my magnifying glass out now. And I think I might not be writing this off as a fake just yet then. Thank you.