impressed with Ultron 28mm/1.9

[Ororaro]

I think it's a selling pont as well. I looked at my 35/1.7 and there is a huge difference from 1.7 and 2.0. On my Canon 85/1.9 - same thing significant enough to see from 1.9 to 2.0. But really - in this case - who cares - looks like a wonderful lens and I can't wait to see more of your photos with it. BTW, what scanner do you use for BW film?

Since an f stop is purely geometric, the differnece from f1.9 to f2 is greater in a 85mm lens then in a tiny 28mm lens.

F1.7 to f2, on 35mm is also much greater then 1.9 to 2 on 28mm.

Indeed, it is a marketing trick, but indeed it is a f1.9 lens, too! Until someone proves it's not a f1.9 opening by accurate geometric calculation, this conversation just shouldn't exist...

The conclusion is real simple, though: Between f1.9 and F2, there is just no meaningful difference.

 

[RayPA]

Since an f stop is purely geometric, the differnece from f1.9 to f2 is greater in a 85mm lens then in a tiny 28mm lens.

F1.7 to f2, on 35mm is also much greater then 1.9 to 2 on 28mm.

Indeed, it is a marketing trick, but indeed it is a f1.9 lens, too! Until someone proves it's not a f1.9 opening by accurate geometric calculation, this conversation just shouldn't exist...

The conclusion is real simple, though: Between f1.9 and F2, there is just no meaningful difference.

TINY! We're talking the CV 28/1.9 not the 3.5!

 

[thafred]

First thanks for your kind comments on my pictures!

I use a KM Scan Dual IV for the scanns.

on the f1.9 issue...Yes maybe it is a f 1.9 design and I surely have no way f proofing its not! I even can see a tiny bit of aperture blades moving in when closing to f2 but only when I look at the lens from the front...when looked through there can´t be seen anything since past f2 wereyou see the opening getting smaller.
otoh in real use it makes no sense discussing this...the lens is stellar at every f-stop!

I got my first colour slides back! very nice colour rendition (at least the original slides look stellar)...pics are attached (Kodak Elitechrome 100)

Also attached are two of my recent night shots to show flare...nice performance here i think.

a side note to street photos: I see now how 28mm is a fave for many street photogs...the people oversee that you are photographing them bacause of the wide field of view (why the hell is he taking a picture of the sidewalk )! a very nice feature:

 

[Ken Ford]

This isn't helping my GAS any... I really like my little C-V 28/3.5, but very much miss the stop and a half.

 

[Ken Ford]

Arrgh. You made me do it - I listed my 28/3.5 for trade...

 

[LeicaM3]

No........

No........

Another dangerous thread...
Just read my way through the Nokton 35/1.2 thread.

Before I needed neither, no I want both.


Andreas

 

[RayPA]

Arrgh. You made me do it - I listed my 28/3.5 for trade...

Ken, couldn't you trade something else? The 28/3.5 is a sweet lens too!

 

[Ken Ford]

In the ideal world, I'd like to keep the 28/3.5 and add the 28/1.9 to the arsenal - and I might yet do so if I can find a used 1.9 for the right price. However, budgetary constraints apply!

 

[irq506]

Hot 28!

Hot 28!

Hi guys and gals,

Santa brought me an Ultron 28mm this christmas and I´m so impressed with its performance that I just had to post.

The lens sure is big and with it´s hood on blocks quite something of the VF but after ditching the hood and getting a cheap snap-in cap the lens feels right at home on my M6. (a little more compact than the Nokton w/o hood)

I love the focusing knob (I wish every lens of mine had this..makes prefocusing the lens much easier imho) and the short focus throw.

What surpises me is that the lens feels very different in operation compared to the Nokton. the focusing is a little slower and the aperture stops are much harder to click (on the nokton the aperture ring clicks smooth and soft into place on the ultron it needs some force compareable to my SummicronC)

the sharpnesss and rendition of the lens is awesome! it has quite low contrast wide open but catches very fine details in the center and isn´t too bad in the corners as far as I can tell. stopped down a few stops it has a very crisp rendition wich I really like.

Talking about f-stops....whatis this f1.9 for?? marketing only? I can´t see any difference at all between f2 and 1.9 when inspecting the lens closely...not a tiny bit of apertue blade coming in the way from 1.9 to 2.0....this is stupid imho cosina shouldhave gone with f/2.0..

The 28 fl is giving me a fun time so here´s some shots from the second roll I did with the Ultron:

this one is named box garden (@ f4):

closed downto f8:

f8 again:

larger versions on my Flickr!

attached is a shot at f/1.9 on Neopan1600 film....thats my granny on christmas eve........the crop is from near center and shows the sharpness.....you can see the mesh of the sweater (ok ok it´s not ideal because of the very fast film but it´s awesome nevertheless)

I recently purcheased a 40 Nokton SC, and only today put the 28 back on the camera to play, and I have to be brutally honest, I think the 28mm is a much higher standard of lens. The image quality is considerably better then the 40 in all light levels and its clarity from f1.9-f22 is superior. Its additional $100 tag doesnt reflect the level of its superiority.
Certainly the physical build quality is outstanding, the lens barrel construction and machining of parts is immaculate. Having such a short focus throw is extremely nice when shooting.

I find it very difficult to fault this lens and would have no hesitation using one on a leica body.

 

[thafred]

Ken I´m sorry for another GAS victim! otoh the Ultron is stellar wide open and you will love the 1.9 aperture!

@ irq506
really? is the Ultron that much better image wise? I´m very surprised since the Nokton 40 is said to be no whimp ether. can you post some pics to underline your point?

The 28/40 combo is killer IMHO! since I got the Ultron I´m shooting it together with the CronC and very much like the difference they offer in FOV but on the other hand they aren´t too far apart to loose the wide angle vision. sweet

some more snaps wide open! the pictures aren´t that good but the lens is awesome..very sharp at the point of focus and SOOFA (smooth out of focus areas...invented as Bokeh substitute by an rff member! I love it).....tell me what you think!

 

[Krosya]

I too am surprised to hear that 40mm Nokton is that much different. While I don't have either of these lenses, so I can't compare them, I heard many good things of 40mm Nokton. I was even considering getting one some day. My experience with Cv lenses is very good - all perform stellar. My 35/1.7 Ultron is so good (in my eyes) that I don't see a need for a Leica 35mm lens. My Cv 21mm is also great. I used to have a 90/3.5 CV lens which was excellent, but a bit too slow for my liking - I hope Cosina comes out with a new version of Lanthar thats faster, more like 90/2.0.
Anyway, to get back on this topic - I too would like to see more on why Nokton 40mm is not as good vs 28/1.9. Some images would be great to make side by side illustration of this.

 

[ferider]

The 28/40 combo is killer IMHO! since I got the Ultron I´m shooting it together with the CronC and very much like the difference they offer in FOV but on the other hand they aren´t too far apart to loose the wide angle vision. sweet

I use exactly the same combo and love it ! I also find the Ultron and the Summicron-C to have similar color rendition and OOF behavior - they fit great.

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[thafred]

I also find the Ultron and the Summicron-C to have similar color rendition and OOF behavior

Cool that you use them too roland! I don´t have enough experience with the Ultron but from looking through the pics shot with both I think you are right...they share alot of "character"

I´m going to Istanbul in Feb and I´m soo looking forward to ride that combo!

cheers

 

[kevin m]

Even the 28 summicron has little to offer over the ultron even at 4 or 5 times the price.

It's worse than that! The Ultron lists for $444, the Summicron for $3,195, so the price difference is over seven times as much. The Summicron is better than the Ultron at f2.0, but not enough to justify it's pricetag, IMO.

 

[Dougg]

Each of us makes our own quality value judgments; we not only see the costs differently but also the qualities differently as well. I note in Thafred's pics above that the 28 Ultron's near-bokeh seems more pleasant to my eye than its far-bokeh which looks a little unsettled.

The 40 Nokton clearly has unpleasant far-bokeh in some circumstances, yet seems innocuous in others. Studying shots with the 40 Rokkor shows some occasions of less than optimal bokeh as well, while the rare 43 Pentax-L appears smoothest in that regard. I don't know the 40 f/2.8 Sonnar, but I expect that would be a good one too. I agree that 40 + 28 is a partnership to be treasured!

I gave great consideration to the 28 Ultron when I was shopping for a 28 faster than my 28 Skopar (a little gem of a lens), and I hesitated over its size and questions about overall performance. Ultimately, I just didn't want to have any lingering doubts, and wanted the smallest fast package, so went with the 28 'cron when I found one (NOS) at about 4x the Ultron list. Have to say I'm delighted with it in every way except the inevitable impact on my budget!

 

[x-ray]

It's worse than that! The Ultron lists for $444, the Summicron for $3,195, so the price difference is over seven times as much. The Summicron is better than the Ultron at f2.0, but not enough to justify it's pricetag, IMO.

A friend brought his 28 summicron to the studio one day and i shot soem at F2 outside in dismal overcast on Adox 25. I've since shot similar images with my 28 Ultron. At f2 there is a very slight advantage to the Summicron that i do not think would be seen even in 20 inch enlargements. The difference is so slight I would have not seen it if I hadn't looked with a very high power loupe. From 2.8 on down it's the same as the summicron. The ultron has stunning bokeh for thos that love the look and absolutely cream like tones but very sharp. I rarely shoot color so I have only shot B&W with both lenses. For me bokeh is a non issue. I'm more concerned with what the subject looks like than the out of focus areas. Anyway, bokeh is dependent on lighting, contrast, and subject in the out of focus areas. Many factors come into play regarding the look of bokeh.

The slight difference in size is no issue and the non existance of the focusing tab, which I hate, is a big plus for the Ultron. The aperture ring is easier to access on the Ultron in my view.

Price not being a factor I still believe i made the right decision. In real world performance differences in the optics i would rate the summicron a 10 and the Ultron a 9.8. In ergonomics I would rate the summicron a 5 (average) and the Ultron a 10.

 

[irq506]

Ken I´m sorry for another GAS victim! otoh the Ultron is stellar wide open and you will love the 1.9 aperture!

@ irq506
really? is the Ultron that much better image wise? I´m very surprised since the Nokton 40 is said to be no whimp ether. can you post some pics to underline your point?

The 28/40 combo is killer IMHO! since I got the Ultron I´m shooting it together with the CronC and very much like the difference they offer in FOV but on the other hand they aren´t too far apart to loose the wide angle vision. sweet

some more snaps wide open! the pictures aren´t that good but the lens is awesome..very sharp at the point of focus and SOOFA (smooth out of focus areas...invented as Bokeh substitute by an rff member! I love it).....tell me what you think!

Hey, I dont actually have a scanner so 99.9% of what I have shot on my RF are still in negs and unpublished. I have a few images on flickr.com/photos/devtank/ which were all taken using the 28 they are all B+W.
Dont get me wrong the 40 is a nice lens, butIm testing out the SC version right now and the one image that I took with it using an R-D1 I was horrified by it. Also the 28 has such a lovely build to it (hey I work in a camera tech shop -Im all about build quality!). The fact that it obscures the VF pah thats just moaning for the sake of moaning. I use a cable-tie for a focus knob, but the throw is 1/3 or less and you could still use it rapidly without a knob at all.
I absolutely detest people who splutter on all day about bokah, do you buy a lens for its out of focus qualities or its in focus qualities -oh god please shut up!
My 28 is about two years old and Ive had it about 6 months, its smooth though not as lose as the 40, but the difference is that the 40 is just plain lose, the 28 is little tighter then Lietz lenses but hey its 95% off the price! Just sit with it and warm it up in your hands, let the lubrication get worked into the helical nicely, throw the focus continuously for a few weeks whilst you are watching TV or something, keep it at around 70f/20c+ and it will wear in very nicely.

 

[thafred]

I have a few images on flickr.com/photos/devtank/ which were all taken using the 28 they are all B+W.

I saw your set before! very nice pictures (I like the tilted compositions in your new photos).. have you aquired a VF for the 28 yet?

the one image that I took with it using an R-D1 I was horrified by it

c´mon! so you don´t need a scanner... please post ;-)

The fact that it obscures the VF pah thats just moaning for the sake of moaning. I use a cable-tie for a focus knob, but the throw is 1/3 or less and you could still use it rapidly without a knob at all.

Didn´t you like the focus knob included with the lens? I love it...can get very fast guess-focus without even looking at the lens! Does the cabe tie stay in the same place? on my CronC wich I also use with a cable tie the thing moves around a bit (I have tightened it with all available force...but still)
The size is a non issue...without hood it feels more compact than the Nokton 50 wthout hood (I much rather have a hood included with a lens purchase than having to get one afterwards but I mostly use them without)

I absolutely detest people who splutter on all day about bokah, do you buy a lens for its out of focus qualities or its in focus qualities -oh god please shut up!

what are you talking about!? I buy a fast lens for it´s sharpness and speed wich pretty much includes SOOFA/Bokeh/bokah...what use does a fast prime have if you can´t use it wide open? example: before I got my hands on the ultron the only compareable lens I could use once was the Vivitar 28/2.0 for Nikon AiS mount....it´s very sharp at the plane of focus but the oof areas look just terrible..so in my view this lens isn´t usable at all wide open....
OTOH if you look at my Flickr pics you will see that since I enjoy shooting people on the streets oof is not important at all..

Just sit with it and warm it up in your hands, let the lubrication get worked into the helical nicely,

Haha...I prefer shooting it warm .....I guess I had just forgotten that the Nokton was stiffer once.

A word on build quality: every CV lens I have is absolutely great regarding build quality (the CronC and Summicron coll don´t have much better build).. I had the chance to try some new Leica glass at the M8 presentation in vienna and wasn´t too impressed at all...sure they are works of art (very fine engravings for ex.) but the Noctilux for felt kinda awkward and rugh compared to my very smooth Nokton 50...maybe I´m totaly retarded but after I tried the Leica lenses I was delighted to have my Nokton back on (not that I would push a lux from the edge of my bed

to underline my point about oof here´s a Vivitars picture shot with Nikon Fm2:

 

[Krosya]

Thafred - whats your take on Cron coll. vs Cron C vs Nokton? As far as overall image quality goes? Sharpness and bokeh wide open?

 

[thafred]

thafred - whats your take on Cron coll. vs Cron C vs Nokton? As far as overall image quality goes? Sharpness and bokeh wide open?

now you´re getting me into deep waters...

I´ve posted some lenstests here, so feel free to make up your own mind.
here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27210&highlight=pixelpeepshow

and here:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32848&highlight=pixelpeepshow

From this tests the conclusion I drew is that the Nokton is the best lens followed closely by the CronC and Cron coll. the latter have lower contrast wich lets them look less sharp than the nokton. and this is exactly the reason why (my) lens tests don´t tell the whole story since i didn´t adjust curves as I would when shooting real pictures. (or changing the grade for wet printing)
both the CronC and the coll deliver awesome performance in the field with higher ability to catch subtile details than the Nokton as far as I experienced it.
I think of it like this....
the Nokton has high macro contrast and high sharpness and when photographing the relative conrast between the outlines of an object and the texture is allready very high.
the lower contrast of the cron´s gives me lower relative contr. between objects outlines and it´s texture so when the global contrast is raised (PS or DR) the texture comes out nicer.
Please don´t flame me for my believes or even take that as fact! ;-) I´m no expert so this might be total bullc*ap..beware!!

back to your second question: the OOF of those lenses is very different and totaly subjective so it can be liked or not ...i like using all three very much. One thing I´m not so fond of is when I can see the aperture shape of the nokton at f2 with bright small light sources! this looks butt ugly and just shouldn´t be! with other backgrounds the Nokton is butter smooth and very nice (wide open with bright lights looks good too)

Ive attached some shots for you to see what I´m talking about (all from different films but what the heck):
1st: Nokton 50/ my girlfriend at X-mas marked....bad picture and better oof wouldn´t help..but nevertheless the decagonal discs look stupid. (HP5)
2nd: Nokton 50/ me! at the companies x-mas party...the collegue didn´t get the RF concept and framed with the whole VF....the oof discs look very good to me (Superia 1600)
3rd: CronC/ a collegue on apx100 film wide open i think.
4th: Cron coll. with very contrasty Agfa Ultra 100 film...I love this oof. (I´m sure alot people would object)