It's a heartbreaker

Rolo,
Would I use an M8 exclusively if the roof over my head, future work, or my reputation depended on it? No. Would I use any other competing digital camera exclusively? No. If I were in your shoes (I am in a way more in a minute) I would have one or two M8's and a few film cameras "just in case." I would then shoot with my digital cameras for at least six months before selling all but one film camera that way I would be covered no matter what. This plan would give me time to gain practical experience to make my final decision as to what level of redundancy I would need.

Now to my story. Two thirds of the year I work like a dog for my company- I travel across the US, Europe and Asia but the summer months are mine. My passion when I’m working (aside from the work it's self) is photography as this gives me something other then work to look forward when I’m on the road. During the summer months however I’m the sailor of a 42ft sailing boat. A boat I’ve sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii a few years back and have been sailing and exploring the Hawaiian islands with ever since. During this time my Leica Digilux 2 was totally unreliable and I used, you guessed it, my old trusty M6. That said I do not enjoy wet film process anymore and hate getting film developed almost as much as I hate scanning transparencies- so when faced with film photography as my sole option I opt not to shoot all that much.

Enter the R-D1s. I purchased one just before a business trip to China and Hong Kong this past November. Almost from the first I was delighted with a camera that shot like my M6. The images I created in difficult light were to my eye excellent and I had a ball with this camera. Three days later and the range finder went out of vertical alignment. Two weeks later and the RF was so out of whack that it was useless to focus aside from zone focus so back to Robert White it went and there it stays as I await the final call from Epson.

Enter the M8. At first I did not care for this cameras ergonomics (no longer the case.) I took it out one night and shot a bunch of streetlights trying to recreate the banding issues so common on the internet- for perhaps 50 shots. No luck (mine is a second production run chrome body from Popflash. Tony what a guy.) I used the camera a while longer and I now love this cameras ergonomics- aside from AP exposure compensation that's nested in an LCD menu. On the plus side I prefer the ISO setting on the LCD menu to that of the R-D1. Most recently I've completed (today) a product shoot under studio conditions and a day trip to San Francisco to put the camera through its paces (where I grew to respect this camera). Let me just say that the M8 is capable of IQ far and away beyond that of scanned transparences and in most ways it's an evolution of the film M. The M8 delivers on the dream of a fully digital M camera where the magic of our Leica glass comes through in images that surpass the film medium.

And now for the reliability litmus test yet to come. I will be sailing to the Line Islands on the Equator from Honolulu this spring aboard my sailboat. To photo document the crossing will I use my M8? Hell no- I’ll use my M6. The M8 will be in a Pelican case with a bunch of moisture absorbing packets along with most of my lenses. In fact the only lenses that will not be so protected will be my 25mm Snapshot Skopar and my old trusty, non-Asph 35mm Summicron. This is just a reality for most digital cameras including the M8 under such circumstances. When I get to these islands however I’ll break out the M8 and have quite the shots to share with my friends here on RFf when I return. And when I return I’ll have a very good idea regarding the long-term reliability of the M8. At this point however the M8 has a much better RF then the R-D1 and vastly superior IQ and in all ways seems as reliable as a digital camera can be without toting a huge and heavy weather sealed Canon (something I have absolutely no interest in doing.)

Sailor Ted

PS. I hope this novalla also gives rsl some insight into the M8.
PSS. Russ my father was a photography test pilot USAF during the Korean war : )
 
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Since you could not manage a darkroom, something I gave up long ago and do not miss, maybe consider farming out C-41 development to a local lab and scanning the negs. This is a viable way to go and in many ways offers the best of both worlds.
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Dick, What? Let the drugstore process my film? Over my dead body! Actually, kidding aside, I used to take film to a local processor in Can Tho, Vietnam. I think the guy was using Dektol on my film. On the other hand, some of the stuff I got wasn't bad, as per the attached. Actually, I've considered the C-41 alternative and I haven't completely thrown it out. But it's awfully hard to go back to film from digital.
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Russ Lewis
 

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Some people are in a financial postion where $4800 (or $9600) + however many IR filters at $100+/each isn't a major consideration to spend on a hobby item, and if in a year there's a new model that doesn't need the IR filters, I'll bet most of those people will trade up and not blink at the cost of that, either. But for some of us it's a major purchase decision and one we'll need to live with for several years at least. I have serious misgivings about being obliged to have a filter over the lens because I frequently encounter situations where I need to remove my UV filter to avoid flare and ghosts. My Canon 20D produces stunning images for display on my 52" plasma TV and in prints up to 11x14 (my biggest size) with relatively inexpensive lenses, using DxO's lens corrections, and Miranda's optimized resizing and sharpening plugins. It's a bulkier setup than I like for travelling, which is why I refrain from getting a 5D, and had high hopes for the M8. Between the 20D and my M6 (as of this morning, film was still available and affordable) I choose to wait and see if there's an M9 with a stronger IR filter in the next 2-3 years. Meantime I got a refurb RD-1 but it's going to have to prove a reliable sample before I will travel with it.
 
Welcome on the forum, Russ. It is a friendly place, albeit somewhat lively since the introduction of the M8.
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Jaap, Thanks for the welcome. It's an interesting forum. I certainly wish Leica the best, but I'm kind of in a wait-and-see configuration until I see what they do with their fixes.

As several people on the forum have pointed out, nobody's perfect, as Microsoft unfortunately has demonstrated over and over again. But I'm not really in a mood to be a paying beta tester for Leica or Microsoft. As someone said, there were plenty of problems with the earlier Nikons, and even my D2X has some corduroy banding in the viewing screen. But on balance, Nikon jumped on their problems and fixed them, though I have a really ticked off friend down the hall from my office in Colorado Springs who's a professional and bought a D1 a few days before the D1X came out. Nikon didn't fix that.

I guess my biggest worry is that Leica will rush too fast to do their fixes. I've seen that kind of thing in the software business over and over again. It would be very unLeicalike for them to do that, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

My other worry is with the fact that the digital world is moving at a pace film never matched. CCD and CMOS sensors are going to go through the same kind of explosive development LCD screens have gone through. A few years ago you couldn't afford an LCD screen for your computer. Now you can buy a huge LCD TV screen and not really go broke. Already digital can beat film hands down in color, though I'd say B&W is still a head-to-head. That situation's going to continue and the pace is going to pick up. It appears to me Leica is still thinking in terms of the old days. If they are, it's going to cost them.

Again, thanks for the welcome. Here's a handshake 🙂
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Russ Lewis
 
jaapv & Ted,

Thank you for your speedy and honest replies. I feel that it balances the enthusiasm for what I and you believe to be a great camera and I have no doubt that the IQ is stunning.

I shot 60 frames with an M8 demo unit at a dealer event and then went back later and shot the same scene with the MP for a direct comparison. On-screen results and on paper are different, but the M8 certainly meets my requirements.

I'll continue to read your posts with interest.
 
Ben,
Back to the same ol circular IR filter song and dance are we? How's that R-D1 working out for ya in this regard?

: )
 
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Everybody respects the purchase decisions we all have to make, Ben, after all it is all a matter of the level where it starts to hurt. One of the reasons why all these "It is so expensive" "Ït is relatively cheap" "It will drop 2000$ in the first year" etc posts are so irritating to all of us is that this is a very personal thing that should not have a place in a forum like this.Fortunately this thread seems not to be headed in that direction 🙂
 
Ben–

You are quite right, there is an important distinction to made between those who can easily afford to use the M8 now, and those who feel the need to be more careful about such an expenditure.

But I'm afraid that on this thread, and elsewhere, there is a tendency for some to conflate the price/value issue with the qualities and limitations of the camera itself. In other words, I fully appreciate that the M8 is expensive, and that for some, such an expenditure may only be comfortable when a more refined (future) version is produced. But that issue should be kept separate, as the cost of the camera (or car, or loudspeaker, etc.) is not relevant to its performance.

These discussions are really about the camera, and as such, the M8 can and should be assessed without regard to cost issues. Those should, ideally, be addressed in separate threads.

As a final note, I find it amusing that some knock the M8 for being much too expensive. Setting aside inflation adjustments, etc., which would put the price of the M8 in a rather different light, I can virtually gaurantee that most of the very same people wouldn't blink an eye if you were to tell them that you had just purchased a $40,000 car, when, of course, a $30,000 model would have been capable of providing exactly the same basic function, with only trivial distinctions.

And with a camera, we're talking about making art! I certainly know where I'd rather spend the extra money.

Regards,

Tony C.
 
Sailor Ted said:
Ben,
Back to the same ol circular IR filter song and dance are we? How's that R-D1 working out for ya in this regard?

: )
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It's there but not as severe as the M8. But then you knew that since you have both 😉 With the RD-1 I have several options not open to me with the M8. Because of the lower IR sensitivity I don't need filters in as many situations. Because of the $1395 price I can afford to buy a few filters if I really need them, and because of the $1395 price I can also afford to keep my Canon gear for times when I know it's mostly low-light indoor shooting, and because of the $1395 price I can also afford to play with it a while and if I really don't like it, sell it for what I paid for it (though I suppose for the next few months while supply is low that might be true of an M8 so we'll call it a draw on that point). What I am finding is that not having an in-camera frameline for less than a (effective) 42mm lens is very annoying, and the vignetting is definitely more severe than I've seen from the same (uncoded) lenses on the M8 despite the latter's larger sensor area. No question, the M8 is in a league above the RD-1 in many important ways. That's what makes it so infuriating to me about those blamed filters.



Tony C. said:
Ben–

But I'm afraid that on this thread, and elsewhere, there is a tendency for some to conflate the price/value issue with the qualities and limitations of the camera itself. In other words, I fully appreciate that the M8 is expensive, and that for some, such an expenditure may only be comfortable when a more refined (future) version is produced. But that issue should be kept separate, as the cost of the camera (or car, or loudspeaker, etc.) is not relevant to its performance.
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Here I have to respectfully disagree. Basing expectations on price is not something people invented for the M8, it's an accepted fact of consumerism. Accepted by consumers and exploited by manufacturers. If you want to try and convince the world that cost and performance are not mutually relevant, all I can say is, good luck with that. Some people can compress a wide range of cost into a single arbitrary category and not hold anything within that range to different standards. But eventually all sensible people no matter how wealthy they are, place a higher expectation on higher-priced items...whether that expectation is in terms of performance, quality, or perhaps just status.
 
Ben in regard to price I have to say this is a very different concern- valid but not in the context of the M8's performance. The fact is the M8 is the best DRF by vast and wide margin. Agreed it would be nice if it also never required an IR cut filter but so be it. When assessing the performance of a 200k Ferrari one could draw the comparison based on price and specs that the newest Corvette is in the same league (as the Ferrari) and in some respects it is. However when taking the less tangible subjective reality of driving experience, fit and finish, engine sound, handling and how the machine coveys it's reaching of it's limits the Ferrari is in a whole different universe. Just as the M8 is when compared to other digital cameras- DSLR or DRF. If the M8’s strong suites are what you seek in a digital camera then no amount of money will deliver the M8 experience except an M8 (of course.)

Back on track regarding IQ you can see in images made with the M8 even from the low rez perspective of a calibrated high quality monitor that it has a certain three dimensionality and color saturation like that of the best film cameras- M or other wise. Again this is irrespective of price and quite unlike anything else currently available on the market at this time. I will also add that these qualities are nothing short of breathtaking when viewed in the context of a top quality print.

Ted
 
"Here I have to respectfully disagree. Basing expectations on price is not something people invented for the M8, it's an accepted fact of consumerism. Accepted by consumers and exploited by manufacturers. If you want to try and convince the world that cost and performance are not mutually relevant, all I can say is, good luck with that. Some people can compress a wide range of cost into a single arbitrary category and not hold anything within that range to different standards. But eventually all sensible people no matter how wealthy they are, place a higher expectation on higher-priced items...whether that expectation is in terms of performance, quality, or perhaps just status."

I never suggested that price isn't, or shouldn't be a relevant variable for either the consumer or the manufacturer; of course should be. But when a serious assessment is done on any product, whether an M8 or a point and shoot, a Porsche or a Ford, the cost of the product is irrelevant. That is to say that there are two assessments to be made, only one of which should include questions relating to cost/value.

The consumer (or professional test driver) who takes the newest 911 out for a spin isn't likely to be thinking "wow, great handling and acceleration for a $90,000 car." The car has certain performance characteristics, period. Of course the individual consumer will eventually decide whether or not those charachteristics (and other qualities) warrant a particular expenditure, but that is a separate issue.

The M8 has certain performance characteristics, design characteristics, etc. It is preferable, in my view, to initially explore and discuss them without the cost variable coloring one's reaction. Then, it goes without saying that each individual consumer will decide for him or herself whether or not it represents good, acceptable, or poor value at its price.

Tony C.
 
Sailor Ted said:
I will also add that these qualities are nothing short of breathtaking when viewed in the context of a top quality print.
Ted
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This I can only endorse. I have never seen top quality prints from a 1DsII so I cannot compare. My cousin shoots a couple of top-level Nikons and a Kodak whacumecallit 14 whatever pro but those do not even come close.(The Kodak though rather more so than the Nikon)
 
Dear heartbroken RSL
Stop sobbing
Get hold of a demo model and go take some pictures. This camera is brilliant in my opinion.
The real question is do you want a rangefinder. if you do , this is a significant development.

The only opinion that matters is yours.
Try the camera and then report back (please)

Richard
 
Tony C. said:
The consumer (or professional test driver) who takes the newest 911 out for a spin isn't likely to be thinking "wow, great handling and acceleration for a $90,000 car."
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If it was me and the Porsche came without windshield wipers, omitted allegedly to increase aerodynamics, and I was given the option of a free squeegee to reach around and wipe off the rain, I agree I would consider the car's cost irrelevant--as well as the great handling and acceleration 😉
 
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Ben,
Oh please certainly the M8 has no such egregious issues at least not from the perspective of this photog who actually owns one. On a slightly different note however, a few years back when riding my Ducati 999 through a Southern California mountain pass I happened upon a group of 911 (Porsche) pilots on the side of the road and in a bit of a dilemma. You see it was beginning to frost up and they had removed their windshield wipers for just the reasons you put forth. I rode away laughing out loud in my helmet at that one.

Ted
 
Sailor Ted said:
Ben,
Oh please certainly the M8 has no such egregious issues at least not from the perspective of this photog who actually owns one. On a slightly different note however, a few years back when riding my Ducati 999 through a Southern California mountain pass I happened upon a group of 911 (Porsche) pilots on the side of the road and in a bit of a dilemma. You see it was beginning to frost up and they had removed their windshield wipers for just the reasons you put forth. I rode away laughing out loud in my helmet at that one.

Ted
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Uh huh, now imagine you're shooting in a banquet hall and there's spotlights overhead and you can't take off your IR filter to avoid flare and ghosts because everyone is in black evening wear, and some wiseguy walks by with a digital ELPH and laughs at you 😉
 
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