Sailor Ted
Well-known
The handling on the R-D1 is analogue and being able to flip the LCD is a nice feature that over time may protect the screen from unwanted scratches. That said the M8 is in a different league ergonomics aside- their is just no comparison between the two cameras so far as image sharpness, dynamic range of color, and where film like prints (not digital looking prints) are concerned. The M8 beats my R-D1s hands down.
Another area where the M8 wins by a mile is in its range finder mechanism- its rock solid. By contrast the R-D1's rangefinder is toy like, goes out of alignment very easily, and can even have two different focus points depending on weather or not your starting from infinity or near focus. Mine has been gone for over one month now at Robert Whites as I am awaiting a replacement body after my brand new R-D1s went out of alignment after just three days of shooting.
As to the M8's supposed inferior ergonomics, I did prefer my R-D1 when I first started shooting with the Leica however after a few days the M8 won me over- it's great not needing to wind the camera, and I don't need glasses to read which ISO I am on so setting ISO is no big deal as it can be if you are far sighted with the R-D1s. Also the Leica "grip" fits the camera perfectly and in return the camera fits your hand like a glove (once you get used to it- takes a day or two). And again the M8's images are in a league by themselves and at the end of the day isn’t this what its all about when shopping for a DRF?
T
Another area where the M8 wins by a mile is in its range finder mechanism- its rock solid. By contrast the R-D1's rangefinder is toy like, goes out of alignment very easily, and can even have two different focus points depending on weather or not your starting from infinity or near focus. Mine has been gone for over one month now at Robert Whites as I am awaiting a replacement body after my brand new R-D1s went out of alignment after just three days of shooting.
As to the M8's supposed inferior ergonomics, I did prefer my R-D1 when I first started shooting with the Leica however after a few days the M8 won me over- it's great not needing to wind the camera, and I don't need glasses to read which ISO I am on so setting ISO is no big deal as it can be if you are far sighted with the R-D1s. Also the Leica "grip" fits the camera perfectly and in return the camera fits your hand like a glove (once you get used to it- takes a day or two). And again the M8's images are in a league by themselves and at the end of the day isn’t this what its all about when shopping for a DRF?
T
Ben Z
Veteran
I own the RD-1 and have handled and shot with an M8, as well as being a long-time M (film) user. Here's my opinion:
-The RD-1 is taller and thicker than a film M and feels altogether different in use. The need to set the framelines manually, the fact there aren't framelines in the camera for wider than 28mm (effective a 42mm FOV), the fact the rangefinder patch doesn't travel with the parallax-corrected framelines and remain centered in them, all are pesky nuisances. The hide-away LCD and the manual shutter advance are hindrances to me. It's a battery-dependent camera, what's the big deal if the shutter re-arms itself after every shot? The lever is an affectation. I normally have the LDC review on my 20D set to "off", and a Hoodskin to protect it and it has no scratches. If the RD-1 could've been made thinner without the swinging LCD I would've liked it better.
-The M8 is only noticeably thicker than a film M if you shoot both at the same time, something I woudn't plan on. Five minutes into it and I forgot about the added thickness. Ditto the lack of an advance lever. I used a Hexar RF briefly and didn't miss the lever. My old Spotmatic has a lever, my 20D doesn't. No big deal. If I owned an M8 I'd put a Hoodskin over the LCD and have the review set to "off", so no need for flipping and flopping. Ergonomically, to me the M8 is an M pretty much like any other. Certainly the rangefinder and framelines are in a league above the RD-1.
For $1395 the RD-1 is a great interim way for me to make use of my Leica lenses while I wait to see what transpires with the M8. If I'm extremely lucky Leica will come up with a new sensor filter that does away with the need for the IR filters. If not, at least by the time the warranty runs out on my RD-1 there won't be any more backlog of M8's or spare batteries, the filters will be in-stock in all sizes, and perhaps the latest round of DOA glitches people have been discovering recently will have been solved as well. For me there is no downside to waiting, other than the small risk the price could go up if there's a major currency fluctuation.
-The RD-1 is taller and thicker than a film M and feels altogether different in use. The need to set the framelines manually, the fact there aren't framelines in the camera for wider than 28mm (effective a 42mm FOV), the fact the rangefinder patch doesn't travel with the parallax-corrected framelines and remain centered in them, all are pesky nuisances. The hide-away LCD and the manual shutter advance are hindrances to me. It's a battery-dependent camera, what's the big deal if the shutter re-arms itself after every shot? The lever is an affectation. I normally have the LDC review on my 20D set to "off", and a Hoodskin to protect it and it has no scratches. If the RD-1 could've been made thinner without the swinging LCD I would've liked it better.
-The M8 is only noticeably thicker than a film M if you shoot both at the same time, something I woudn't plan on. Five minutes into it and I forgot about the added thickness. Ditto the lack of an advance lever. I used a Hexar RF briefly and didn't miss the lever. My old Spotmatic has a lever, my 20D doesn't. No big deal. If I owned an M8 I'd put a Hoodskin over the LCD and have the review set to "off", so no need for flipping and flopping. Ergonomically, to me the M8 is an M pretty much like any other. Certainly the rangefinder and framelines are in a league above the RD-1.
For $1395 the RD-1 is a great interim way for me to make use of my Leica lenses while I wait to see what transpires with the M8. If I'm extremely lucky Leica will come up with a new sensor filter that does away with the need for the IR filters. If not, at least by the time the warranty runs out on my RD-1 there won't be any more backlog of M8's or spare batteries, the filters will be in-stock in all sizes, and perhaps the latest round of DOA glitches people have been discovering recently will have been solved as well. For me there is no downside to waiting, other than the small risk the price could go up if there's a major currency fluctuation.
Topdog1
Well-known
"The need to set the framelines manually, the fact there aren't framelines in the camera for wider than 28mm (effective a 42mm FOV), the fact the rangefinder patch doesn't travel with the parallax-corrected framelines and remain centered in them, all are pesky nuisances."
Chaqun a son gout, as they say. These things don't bother me at all. You will have to try the camera yourself to see if they bother you.
/Ira
Chaqun a son gout, as they say. These things don't bother me at all. You will have to try the camera yourself to see if they bother you.
/Ira
Sailor Ted
Well-known
I especially love it when shooting with my R-D1 and find I was using the wrong frame lines- exceptionally annoying. Also not having a field of view greater then 42mm means I am using aux finders far to often- a huge negative. Lastly the lack of reliability for the R-D1's RF is a deal breaker aside from using the R-D1 as co-pilot to my M8 or when this cameras natural strength makes it my go to camera.
Ted
Ted
GrahamWelland
Well-known
I had the R-D1 up until my M8 arrived and I'd agree with most of the comments here regarding usability and performance.
The analogue nature of the R-D1 and makes it a very easy camera to use. The manual frameline selection and the stupid need to depress the button to do exposure adjustment used to erk me a bit but overall the ergonomics are excellent. The winder makes for an ideal thumb rest too in use.
With the M8 I did also find it too slippery without the extra grip. Maybe it's a function of the extra girth/weight that makes it handle differently to a smaller M that you grasp a little tighter between your fingers. In terms of ergonomics, I do find the face grease on the sensor to become annoying after a while - that's one nice feature of the Epson with the LCD cover. I also find myself covering the right side viewfinder sometimes when using the grip, mainly because it raises my finger slightly - however, the grip makes the camera much easier to carry and grasp firmly so it's a tradeoff.
In terms of image quality, the R-D1 does a great job with typical 'rangefinder' shots using decent glass. I do like the quality and character of the colour rendition although I did find that I wanted more resolution sometimes - not always, just sometimes. Despite what you might have read, the M8 is simply stunning imho. I'm not using my IR/UV filters yet but whenever I pull up any decent M8 DNG or jpg into PS they jump out with their clarity, detail and acquity. I'm using Zeiss glass and it shows. I don't have any Leica glass to compare with but it would have to be stunning to be better - I have to work my Nikon D2X & prime glass to get even close.
If you're wondering whether to chose between the R-D1 and the M8 then I think it's an easy decision, economics aside the M8 is the one to choose. However, at less than a third of the price the R-D1 is an excellent camera that will take advantage of the good glass that you put on it. Both have niggling faults, some more significant than others (R-D1 has IR UV problem too btw), but I personally haven't been affected by them.
The analogue nature of the R-D1 and makes it a very easy camera to use. The manual frameline selection and the stupid need to depress the button to do exposure adjustment used to erk me a bit but overall the ergonomics are excellent. The winder makes for an ideal thumb rest too in use.
With the M8 I did also find it too slippery without the extra grip. Maybe it's a function of the extra girth/weight that makes it handle differently to a smaller M that you grasp a little tighter between your fingers. In terms of ergonomics, I do find the face grease on the sensor to become annoying after a while - that's one nice feature of the Epson with the LCD cover. I also find myself covering the right side viewfinder sometimes when using the grip, mainly because it raises my finger slightly - however, the grip makes the camera much easier to carry and grasp firmly so it's a tradeoff.
In terms of image quality, the R-D1 does a great job with typical 'rangefinder' shots using decent glass. I do like the quality and character of the colour rendition although I did find that I wanted more resolution sometimes - not always, just sometimes. Despite what you might have read, the M8 is simply stunning imho. I'm not using my IR/UV filters yet but whenever I pull up any decent M8 DNG or jpg into PS they jump out with their clarity, detail and acquity. I'm using Zeiss glass and it shows. I don't have any Leica glass to compare with but it would have to be stunning to be better - I have to work my Nikon D2X & prime glass to get even close.
If you're wondering whether to chose between the R-D1 and the M8 then I think it's an easy decision, economics aside the M8 is the one to choose. However, at less than a third of the price the R-D1 is an excellent camera that will take advantage of the good glass that you put on it. Both have niggling faults, some more significant than others (R-D1 has IR UV problem too btw), but I personally haven't been affected by them.
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POINT OF VIEW
Established
Lets face it , the RD-1 is a toy compared to the magnificent M8. Now the
12 mega pixel RD-2 is worthy of discussion.
12 mega pixel RD-2 is worthy of discussion.
rvaubel
Well-known
Athough I love my RD1, the viewfinder/rangefinder of the M8 is so much better. The framelines actually are pretty accurate and parrallex errors are much less evident than on the RD1. The fact that the rangefinder patch stays centered IS a big deal for me because I use it as a centering quide for my 135mm lens which works fine BTW. Focus is dead on with this camera...and it stays that way!
About the only thing that bugs me about the camera is the shutter noise. I wish it had a manually cocking shutter but then I know that I am in the minority
. Still I will keep my RD1 for stage and event work where shutternoise is a no-no.
I could care less about the flip screen on the RD1 as I am a rabid chimper. Except to fool people into thinking I have a film camera. It is fun to impress people with your antique film camera that is actually digital.
Ergometrically they are really quite similar with a slight preference towards the RD1. No biggee though.
Of course the M8 makes slightly better pictures. Practically you can do a little more cropping or make one size larger print. The DNG files also seem to have less in camera sharpening and noise reduction. I know DNG files are supposed to be free of in camera processing but it is not true. But Leica seems to leave the DNG files pretty much alone which is a really good thing especially when post processing 1250 and 2500 ISO shots.
All that being said, I still wished that Epson/Cosina had supported the RD1 and developed an RD2. With a more reliable rangefinder and better support, the sucessor to the RD1 would have been a very attractive alternative, especially to those that liked the retro ergometrics, the 1 to 1 viewfinder, and the manual winder.
Oh well, there is only one choice now. Lets hope Leica can weather the storm for the sake of all of us in rangefinderland.
Rex
About the only thing that bugs me about the camera is the shutter noise. I wish it had a manually cocking shutter but then I know that I am in the minority
. Still I will keep my RD1 for stage and event work where shutternoise is a no-no.
I could care less about the flip screen on the RD1 as I am a rabid chimper. Except to fool people into thinking I have a film camera. It is fun to impress people with your antique film camera that is actually digital.
Ergometrically they are really quite similar with a slight preference towards the RD1. No biggee though.
Of course the M8 makes slightly better pictures. Practically you can do a little more cropping or make one size larger print. The DNG files also seem to have less in camera sharpening and noise reduction. I know DNG files are supposed to be free of in camera processing but it is not true. But Leica seems to leave the DNG files pretty much alone which is a really good thing especially when post processing 1250 and 2500 ISO shots.
All that being said, I still wished that Epson/Cosina had supported the RD1 and developed an RD2. With a more reliable rangefinder and better support, the sucessor to the RD1 would have been a very attractive alternative, especially to those that liked the retro ergometrics, the 1 to 1 viewfinder, and the manual winder.
Oh well, there is only one choice now. Lets hope Leica can weather the storm for the sake of all of us in rangefinderland.
Rex
GrahamWelland
Well-known
POINT OF VIEW said:
I wouldn't go as far as to say that about the R-D1 - it'sa great camera but it's not a fair comparison really as the M8 is a stunning imaging machine (imho). If I didn't have the M8 I'd get another R-D1 in a heartbeat.
RD-2 - bring it on!
Ben Z
Veteran
POINT OF VIEW said:
Have you printed any files from the RD-1? With careful processing (and I'm no expert, I just use Fred Miranda's plug-ins designed for the Nikon D100 that used the same chip) the prints look mighty nice. Mine are definitely sharper and less grainy than anything Cartier-Bresson did, although nowhere near as interesting