Kiev 4 Film advance

[it290]

Hello all,

New user & new Kiev-4 owner. I've been using the Kiev for a short time, but I think I may have caused a problem with it already. I loaded a new roll today and noticed that the rewind knob was not turning when I advanced the film, so I took the back off again and after inspecting it it seems that the turning fork and sprockets are not turning when the shutter is wound - although once in a while (maybe once out of every 6-7 turns), both will advance. Any advice on how to fix this problem?

 

[physiognomy]

Welcome to RFF!!!

Sorry to hear you are having trouble with your Kiev... They can be great cameras, but many of us who use them regularly have had to work on them. Unfortunately I dont have a great deal of experience with the film transport mechanism, but I would definitely check that the film rewind button on the bottom of the camera isn't sticking. My next move would be to look up Russ Pinchbeck's Kiev Survival Site (click here)... It has lots of great info on these cameras.

Good luck!

Peter

 

[it290]

Thanks... good to see a fellow Denverite on the forum as well. 😉 .. it is definitely not the rewind button as that part is nice and springy. Looking at the Kiev survival site, I'm guessing that there is a bad/stripped gear in the works somewhere, but what throws me off is that if I move the advance sprockets manually, the turning fork and winding knob both turn properly. I suspect the film may have slipped off the sprockets and bound up at some point, throwing the winding mechanism out of whack when I tried to wind it afterwards. I'm just trying to determine if it's something that will require new parts, or if something just slipped and can be reassembled to work properly.

 

[Xmas]

It920

If the sprocket shaft and take up fork are (still) geared together it is quite possible that the wind on logic is stuck with congealed grease (wax) - the most frequent kiev problem is wax, the camera thinks it has wound on already...

The camera may be stripped with

- a watch makers screw set
- deep tray to catch parts (when you turn the camera upside down)
- zippo fluid (to remove wax)
- artists brush (to get the zippo only to the part that needs it)
- PTFE liquid lube (or sewing machine oil)
- pressure sensitive tape (to hold small screws)

if you are lucky you should be able to clear the problem with only the top embilisher plate off, you should not need a full strip, but it is likely that the shutter will jam if you dont so a full de-wax.

Hope you got your kiev cheap, if you bought it from a shop/e-bay you could send it back... more fun taking it apart, it is like a grown up mechanical watch inside.

Noel

 

[fidget]

Hi it290, I thought of a possibility for this, I saw this on mine when I was determined to see why it overlapped frames (yes, much more fun to come). I noticed that the knob did not move much. It would stay in one position for the first few frames and only then begin to move. I think that because the rewind mechanism is a little more resistant to movement than a modern camera, that at least the first few frames are pulled off the film cassette without turning the knob. When the slack has been taken out of the cassette it will turn, possibly even more than necessary due to the spring effect of the tight film.
Check that the film is winding by operating the winder whilst the camera back is off, you should see the sprocket turning reliably, it should not slip or jump. If this is OK, put a scrap film in, close the back and wind on whilst looking through the open lens mount. You could even mark the film as it stops at each frame, or misses it, as the case may be. I hope that you don't have stripped gears, that would be very unlucky .

PS welcome to the forum.

Dave

 

[it290]

Thanks guys-

Yes, the problem is definitely in the winding and not just with taking up slack from the rewind. I think I will follow Xmas' suggestion to open the top of the camera and give it a cleaning- at least then I will be able to discern if there are problems with the gears not related to the buildup of wax or other crud. Will post a report on how it goes once I get around to the disassembly (hopefully sometime this week).

 

[Xmas]

Dave

The rewind should be a simple brass bush and should not be stiff. It wont spin like a top but there should be no resistance. If there is then you need to remove the shaft and clean.
When rewinding I think that the sproket shaft is de-clutched but the take up forks may still be engaged, which would explain why rewinding is so slow, I'll check this.

It290

There are two fingers that control the wind on (my memory is not that good) both are on the shuttercocking/wind on/speed selector logic cluster, one is at the rear of the camera the other at the right hand side looking as you take a photo. Both should be free of any friction and can run dry. I brush on zippo and excersise until clear/clean and add a small drop of PTFE liquid, the PTFE addition is optional, it will mix with any residual wax, some of my Kiev are rusty, I'd ignore this if I were you.

Noel

 

[DaveP]

Check the shutter speed button, there should be a red dot there to align it with.Turn the shutter speed button with your thumb. This has happened to me, I was boxing one up to be sent for repairs once and caught it at the last minute.

 

[Xmas]

DaveP
If the speed selection was 'T' the wind on would spin freely rather than advance intermittently? - Ive forgotten...
Noel

 

[DaveP]

If its not fully engaged either way , sometimes it will catch and sometimes it wont, giving the appearence that the film isnt advancing.

 

[Xmas]

DaveP
Hey a new symptom if the button iis locked down it should not catch was yours intermittent?
Noel

 

[fidget]

I got the impression that the film is advanced wherever the button was. The lock down shutter button only disengages/engages the shutter mechanism. (I've been caught by this one). But boy, these are a bit more complicated than the FED/Zorkis that I am a little more willing to have a go at, it's not difficult to imagine all sorts of faults in there. Could be a cure for GAS.

 

[varjag]

I had a problem like that with one of my bodies. A cog wheel that transfers momentum from advance limb onto film advance and counter has worn around the axis and played. Not much can be done with that other than changing the part (not easy too).

 

[Xmas]

Ok guys I give in - the more exact statement is the wind on should not be intermittent, if the button is locked down on 'T'. Unless there is something broken - very unlikely.
The only cure I have for the worn gear shaft is to use a thick washer to locate the wind on fork shaft axialy, to mesh the (its) gears 100%, but if they (the gears) have slipped already you will need at least one new gear wheel (two would be desirable) and you need to dismantle the shutter module. The failure mechanism (I have seen) is the gears shift axially, as well as wearing cross axis, so they only mesh <10% axially and then fail under excessive torque...
If I strip a camera I fit a locating washer for caution, as I have only one parts camera. The locating washer is a cassette top doughnut cut by leather punch, trimmed to fit with scapel.
I would suggest is undesirable to use too much force on wind on, damaged film is annoying damaged gears a full service...
Noel