Argh! Trouble!

kmack said:
This is the kind of thing you have to expect when you get into a service based business.

Fortunately you can use this as a low impact learning experience.

You have discovered several important lessons here.
1. The aggravation factor increases as the profit margin decreases.
2. The client will expect more than what was agreed upon.
3. Stay away from blondes.
Click to expand...


I have shot a few weddings for free as favors. Most were very appreciative as they came to me out of stated need as they didn't have the money for a professional photographer. I tried to get out of it and only agreed after I felt they were indeed in need.

Except for one. I thought it strange they didn't have the money as both parents worked, but hey, I took them at their word. How could I know their exact circumstances. They were the most demanding, and expressed disappointment as a few of the shots not being just what they wanted. In fact they were what they described to me as what they wanted, it was a printing issue. 1 and 2 above are right on as far as I am concerned.

A couple of years ago, my daughter worked for a charity that wanted some photos of a big public event they were sponsoring for raising money. My daughter volunteered me. I looked forward to it and was picking the lenses I thought would give them the best photos. The photo coordinator asked if I could do digital. I didn't have a DSLR, but told him I could use my office's Sony P&S. Not good enough. I told him I could get, in fact do myself, scans of any photos he wanted to put on web pages or in magazines. Not good enough! I didn't like his attitude either. I don't know who did it or with what equipment, but it wasn't me, nor would I volunteer for that organization ever again.

It's just the chance you take in what you are trying to do. I hope your next attempts are easier and more productive!

Good luck to you. It seems as if you are on the right track.
 
Hi Ash, I'm pleased to hear the filesizes were OK after all.

This sort of situation can always be difficult but it sounds as if you have dealt with it well.

The only point I'd like to make is to agree with Michiel, that email is just not a suitable means of communication when problems start to happen, or when people start to get stressed - there simply isn't the emotional bandwidth. So, we slightly evolved apes end up misinterpreting things and escalating the problem. A phone call or face to face meeting allows a friendly tone of voice or smile to defuse a stressful situation in a couple of minutes.

Anyway - hope that didn't sound patronising, it was just meant as friendly advice.

All the best... Dan
 
Get ready for the long-winded email to 'roger' at the link magazine:

Ash said:
Hi Roger,

I hope that you don't mind me contacting directly. I'm Ash, responsible for the photo's behind Tami and Diana's story that will apparently be published in your magazine.

I have been given almost no detail, only that my photographs would like to be used alongside the story. So I'd like to fill in some gaps if that is fine with you?

The image size was a problem I was told. Could you please provide specific requirements, as I now have the images at 300dpi and they are large enough for a 10x8 (inch) print at full size. I can downsize the images to a 10cm (on the longest side) length with 300dpi, this will however cause distortion if the image is resized larger than 10cm in the final print. I have also provided the photographs as-is, and any touch ups I shall do on request - I would prefer that my images are only edited by myself, or by somebody else after request and approval.


I'd also like to speak directly in person, via telephone or through email regarding copyright issues. As I understand this is a fully charitable event, and as such no money will change hands unless it is directly to the charities outlined by Diana and Tami. Due to this liaison through 'the blondes' I am unable to directly communicate with you regarding copyright issues. As I am sure you are fully aware, the photographer owns copyright to the images regardless of the subject matter.

I had requested that my terms of being credited with my full name (ASHLEY BUTTLE) beneath each image, and a link to my current temporary web space within the article itself ('myspace' - http://www.myspace.com/second_belated). I'd also like to request at least one copy of the publication, if that is possible.



If at all possible I'd like to discuss with you any legal ramifications of having my images published by you. I am led to believe I will not be signing any binding contracts, but this also means that there may be no exclusive use of the images. This is very important in consideration of the nature of the story, and any further publicity Diana/Tami may have and their use of my images.

I'd like to be made aware of any of your magazine's terms of use. I am unsure of the fate of the images once published by you, and whether or not you will be archiving them. If you plan on reproducing the images in the future or if they will appear on any website or advertising, this may well require talking to you in person and drawing up full terms of use. I am free most days if you would like to arrange an informal meeting to discuss this fully in person. I would be grateful to have anything discussed in person also provided in writing so that I have a hard copy for my own reassurance.

I am unavailable tomorrow or at the weekends, but if you would like, you can contact me via mobile: <deleted>

Your correspondence and co-operation would be most appreciated so that everybody involved has a clear understanding of what will be happening in regards to this story.

Take care,

Sincerely,

Ash
<deleted my contact info>
Click to expand...

EDIT: in the email I'm sending I've altered some grammatical errors.
 
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Ash, I have had similar issues come up in the past. Its always the freebie stuff that becomes a hassle. I believe it is related to the clients lack of payment leaving them unable to value the image or your work effort. I recently sent a e-mail to one potential client that basically said I would be happy to answer some questions through e-mail for free but stated my firm day rate plus expenses for any work.


My two rules are this, If I shoot or print for free I write on the front of the front side of the image. If I get paid, I write on the back of the image unless asked otherwise. This could be anything from a 8x10 print for a friend which I sign with a permanent marker to some type of watermark with a e-mail address.


This is where you need to have some cards with basic contact information so the next time anyone wants to use one of your images in print you can just have them contact you directly as mentioned.
 
I'm gonna go down the 'business card' route as soon as I have my site up. Unfortunately that is taking forever. But I do appreciate it being done for free by a friend - as such I'm not on at him every day to get it done 😉

If I was being paid for maybe one shoot that will appear in a magazine or tabloid I could afford the site to be built, and the domain name and hosting for a couple years I bet. That's the other edge I keep having jabbed at me - I'm doing things non-profit and such I don't have the cash available to even have a good site up to advertise myself for the profitable aspects!
 
without even a "hello" at the start (a true businessman is he)

roger said:
Sorry the reply is brief but any longer and it will be easier to fix a time
to take my own pictures with the blondes.

I need 3 or 4 pics, one with story next month, others to promote trip in
later editions (maybe).

Max size in magazine - 10cm wide, supplied at 300dpi. They will appear in
our online digital edition - see swindonlink.com and maybe used in a web
site story.

I don't touch up pics, but I will crop and sharpen as necessary.

Picture credit will be given; web site mention will depend on space in
magazine, but will be hyperlinked from swindonlink.com
Copyright remains with you, no legal tie ups or exclusivity.

If you're OK with this, the images which look nice on your web site are:
NR0K1591a.jpg
NR0K1585a.jpg
NR0K1615a.jpg
NR0K1622a.jpg

roger
Click to expand...


my reply


Ash said:
Hi Roger,

Thank you for your immediate albeit brief response.

I'd prefer that the mention of the site is with the images somewhere
in the article. http://www.myspace.com/second_belated is a single line
(less than 40 characters) and is easily fitted underneath one image.

Your choice in 4 images is different to the choice by the blondes, so
this needs to be rectified. If you're available for a chat next week
then we can sort this fully, else please consider all the points in my
original email and provide a full response.

Let me know if the attached photograph meets your requirements for filesize.

Sincerely,

Ash
Click to expand...
 
Ash,
I just had the same dpi problem with some jpgs I took. How do you edit and save them after editing? I was using Picasa and discovered that unless I saved them at maximum quality they would turn out to be just 96 dpi. When saved at the highest setting they were 300 dpi. So the quality of the source file can be degraded if you don't save the edited pics the right way.

T.
 
Ash,
Please don't take this the wrong way but I think you have a lot to learn about the press. It is the sort of answer I would expect. He is looking for pictures to illustrate a story which will either sell papers or fill space. He is not worried about reflecting the wishes of the subject or photographer. His time is precious to him. As he says, he can get his own pictures in less time than arranging meetings etc. He is giving you credit, there are no strings and space permitting, he will put the website address. I think that that is about the best you can expect (though you might wish for more)

Ash said:
Originally Posted by roger
Sorry the reply is brief but any longer and it will be easier to fix a time
to take my own pictures with the blondes.

I need 3 or 4 pics, one with story next month, others to promote trip in
later editions (maybe).

Max size in magazine - 10cm wide, supplied at 300dpi. They will appear in
our online digital edition - see swindonlink.com and maybe used in a web
site story.

I don't touch up pics, but I will crop and sharpen as necessary.

Picture credit will be given; web site mention will depend on space in
magazine, but will be hyperlinked from swindonlink.com
Copyright remains with you, no legal tie ups or exclusivity.

If you're OK with this, the images which look nice on your web site are:
NR0K1591a.jpg
NR0K1585a.jpg
NR0K1615a.jpg
NR0K1622a.jpg

roger
Click to expand...
 
As a professional writer and magazine columist, I would like to confirm all Kim has said. Ash, you have been treated as well as you could possibly expect and may think yourself lucky to get a credit. As an unpaid amateur photographer you have absolutely no status and the editor of a local free-sheet like the Link will not give a damn for your choice of picture. He also knows his readership far better than you. He knows they will be happy with any reasonably sharp photograph: Your job is to save him a drive across town to take the snaps in his lunch hour. If you want to promote your site, make news, submit photographs and give the man a reason to feature your work. Every day writers and editors are bombarded by material from wannabees. Such people invariably fail to understand that the only thing an editor loves is a reliable source of material.

Herein lies the difference between professionals and amateurs.

Ian
 
I have a little different take on the matter. First I think Ash is pretty damm brave to work through this in public all be it among friends here on the forum. This was a learning experience for him, the same kind of learning experience many of us have worked through privately. Editors can be jack asses, this one may be half way there and I'm sure he is on a deadline but thats no excuse to appear hurried with ones words.


There are people reading this now that will never even post on the matter but have learned something, Good Job Ash! There are not to many young guys doing what he is doing that can hang in here on the forum with for all practical purposes is a group of old men musing about cameras they learned to love in their youth. I think its great to have the chance to watch Ash going about his youthful love affair with cameras since Ive already been through a few divorces with photography.
 
It being a cold hard world, as Frank observes, here is something that has has helped out more than one aspiring pro photographer.

Ash, I see that that there are two theatres in Swindon, both of which feature touring companies and performers. Write to them - the performers and theatre managers. Explain that you are an aspiring photographer and offer free photographs, Send them links to your site. If need be, hang about the stage door with your view camera. Get yourself known.

Big people may not show much interest, but they are not important to you. The cast of any touring show will always include novices and hopefuls. Photograph them. They will want pictures. Talk to them.

Then, submit the photographs and a couple of paragraphs to local papers and free sheets in their hometown. Local boy/girl makes good is always copy: you will not get much, but do this regularly and it will mount up. You will gain experience and - on the side - be able to take pictures that interest you. I worked as a screenwriter, but in my few encounters with live theatre I found it a fascinating world. You may even get an exhibition in the foyer.

A similar approach can also work with the major advertisers in your local press. A photo essay about a car dealer's may not appeal to you, but it will probably get you a half-page in the free sheet they finance.

And such pictures need not be be dross. This was Jaye Griffiths (since of The Bill, Doctors, Bugs etc), when she worked in film hell with me - it got me £50, which I needed just as much as you do - http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=34804&ppuser=2846

Cheers,Ian
 
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Stand your ground ASH ... and keep an open ear with these guys

On a funny note, the last shots I sold to a newspaper (local) I got yelled at for sending them too large 😛

Publishers are never easy to please
 
Hi Ash

Thanks for raising a variety of issues and discussing all this on the forum.
This is a great thread.
Some of the suggestions made sound very interesting to me and have probably got you thinking in a slightly different direction. The possible theatre shots of young and hopefulls sounds exciting and pretty useful for all concerned. Go for it!

I've been asked to do a publicity brochure for a local church group and to include photos taken already. Nobody has even suggested that the photographer gets a credit! But he will now if I get my way. Of course I will give him a ring to see what his view is.
Thanks again and best of luck.
j
 
kmack said:
This is the kind of thing you have to expect when you get into a service based business.

Fortunately you can use this as a low impact learning experience.

You have discovered several important lessons here.
1. The aggravation factor increases as the profit margin decreases.
2. The client will expect more than what was agreed upon.
3. Stay away from blondes.
Click to expand...
I wihs this added:
4. Try to be easier on people (clients?) who might know much less about things YOU do. Like, file sizes, DPI, etcetera. You can't expect that person, blonde or non blonde, Di, to know that 72 DPI means NOTHING and 3200 pixels have to be divided by the printing resolution 300 DPI to give the printed size (above 10 INCHES). Especially since it seems that this was not even obvious to YOU before you started to play around with the numbers! 🙂
I do think your request was absolutely normal and should have been done even without you ASKING for it, but i also think you were a bit harsh in your e-mail to her.

Cheers and good luck.
 
Ash, Ian is spot on - I commission a lot of creative work as part of my job promoting my college and nothing hacks me off so much as a photographer wanting a long discussion about their needs. I just need their work delivered and don't have time for anything else. A wise friend at an agency once told me there are only two possibilities when under this sort of pressure. You say "Yes I'll sort that out for you" or you say "I'm sorry I can't do any more to help".

The reply from Roger was pretty much what I would have said to you and I have a reputation for being nice. It's just business, stuff has to get done. If you can't do it, they'll get someone else. Keep at it though - one day that magical call will come saying they've seen your work and could you help out? In the meantime grow a very thick skin - you'll need it.
 
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