Comment on Leica Quality

x-ray said:
None of us are forced to buy Leica. There are plenty of other cameras RF and slr so if we don't like the pricing we don't have to buy. Simple enough. If Leica makes no sales they'll have to reduce pricing or go out of business. As consumers we have the choice and we have the final say. Leica isn't holding a gun to our heads. I don't think there's any one of us that could'nt do as good with a Bessa or ZI. Leica doesn't have the market cornered on top notch lenses either. Changes aren't going to come from letters to the company changes will only happen when our money speeks.
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Leica is indeed in danger of disappearing as a independant and unique camera brand. Many here take it for granted that the M8 is an economical success for Leica. I am not so sure. I think it is very likely that the M8 is the last camera they will produce with a M mount.

It could well be the last camera that they will produce themselves, regardless of design. One of the reasons would be the dollar rate in euros, a factor that the Leica managment can do fine little about. The low value of the dollar reflects the lack of strenght of US economy compared to the European. The destiny of Leica reflects the problems quite a few european exporters face with a weak dollar. The future of Leica could be 'just the red dot', rented away to some obscure chinese digital camera producer.

The last financial figures shown, when Leica was public, showed a company in deep trouble. The troubles have'nt gone away with M8. I say to you that I bought a M8 not because it is so good (because it isn't), but in hope that it might be a M9 one day. I have done my share.
 
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Olsen:

I agree 100% that Leica is far from being out of trouble. I think we both agree that pricing themselves higher than the rest of the market isn't the solution to buildig a strong customer base. As a business man I price my work to the point I limit the kind of client that comes to me and if I price myself higher I loose the clients I want to keep. I think Leica is living in the 50's and fail to see they aren't king of the 35mm market any longer. Their problems clearly illustrate they haven't done thir homework and have been living on mainly their name. Now that there's strong competition in the RF market and RF lens market from both Cosina and Zeiss their market share has dropped even more. I have to say that I like Leica M's and lenses but after purchasing a ZI and three Zeiss lenses I like the Zeiss glass hands down over Leicas new generation of asph lenses. I also love the ZI body and would most likely go Zeiss if I were starting over and didn't have 6M's. Disregarding price I can find little that I don't like about the ZI.

Olsen, I've heard remarks about taxes in Norway. How are taxes compared to the US and how do wages compare. Our tax structure tops just under 50% aand most states have a state income tax plus sales taxes, etc. How does it work in Norway?

Many thanks!
 
Leica is indeed in danger of disappearing as a independant and unique camera brand.
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Very true, but this has been true before. At some level, every business faces this test every day, but Leitz/Leica have special issues: small market, high product costs, thin capitalization, among others...and the fact that they've dodged the bullet several times in the past does not guarantee that they will do so the next time, though I certainly hope they can and will.
 
x-ray said:
Olsen:

Their problems clearly illustrate they haven't done thir homework...

Olsen, I've heard remarks about taxes in Norway. How are taxes compared to the US and how do wages compare. Our tax structure tops just under 50% aand most states have a state income tax plus sales taxes, etc. How does it work in Norway?

Many thanks!
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The logic conclusion of a strategic 'homework' session at Leica would be that only the Red Dot lives on. Because it is impossible to make a competetively priced rangefinder M. The M8, I am sure, is a product out of enthusiasm and true love of the M-rangefinder system.

Direct taxes on my sallary is abuot 41% (this would vary from, about 28% to 48% depending on level of sallary). Then my employer pays an additional 10% employer tax. Then we have a sales tax of 20% off the price of about everything we buy (except for 2.hand goods etc.). Then add taxes on alcohol, tobacco, petrol (one liter of petrol costs two dollars in Norway).

How much norwegian citizens are earning and how much they pay in taxes, they being billionairs - or jail inmates, everyone, is available on the Net.

The public services provided for the tax money are free (practically) health care through my life, a pension system seccuring me a pension of (about) 66% of my current sallary when passing 62, free (almost) education of children through university, law and order, a lavish social wellfare program directed towards children and mothers, the poor, the old, the down and outs etc. etc. What we, norwegian sitizens, do in Norway are buying these services 'together'. Then we buy them cheaper,- even better, than in the US (see Moor's Sicko).

Then taxes arn't that high in Norway. The total is only some 44 - 45% of the GNP. In Sweden where dental services (among others) are included in the tax bill - I think it is fair to say that the swedes has the best teeth in the world, the public tax level is about 50% of the total GNP. But then Sweden is regarded as one of the best nations to live in.....
 
Olsen, we pay about the same taxes in the US plus we all pay social security taxes (contributions) and because I'm self employed I pay double at about 15%. My fed tax is about 42-44%, no income tax in my state but all but three have it at something like 5-8%, 9.25% sales tax plus gasoline, utilities, alcohol and etc. and nothing is free but we do get a whopping 1% return on out social security when we turn 62.

I think we're getting scr--ed in the US!
 
x-ray said:
Olsen, we pay about the same taxes in the US plus we all pay social security taxes (contributions) and because I'm self employed I pay double at about 15%. My fed tax is about 42-44%, no income tax in my state but all but three have it at something like 5-8%, 9.25% sales tax plus gasoline, utilities, alcohol and etc. and nothing is free but we do get a whopping 1% return on out social security when we turn 62.

I think we're getting scr--ed in the US!
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- You are....

Of what I have heard is that the total tax level in the US is some 28 - 30% - compared to Norway's 45% and Sweden's 50% etc. but that you have to then buy services from the private sector to cover any health care costs, education for your children - etc.that we get included in our tax bill.

In this light taxes are damned high in the US....

Say: If you reduced defense spending to the half - you would still be the strongest military power in the world (if that is so important) you could finance a very lavish public pension system including all americans (pluss few million imigrants). But you don't want to. You go to the polls and elect politicians that want to spend it all on defence....

Mind you; the price of petrol is four - 4 - times higher here in scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland) than in the US. The balance is 'petrol tax'. My neighbor, an architect from Dallas, Texas, say that he can't afford to move back to the US. To pay for equally covering health care and pension package would cost 'a fortune' in the US.

I looked up your excellent pictures of the hillbillies etc. Just outside Oslo you will find just a similar area were old bachelors will do moonshine whiskey (to avoid the heavy alcohol tax) etc. Every now and then an house goes up in flames with such an old man as a victim; due to 'an explosion' in the cellar. For that kind of excellent photography you need a Leica....

Ansel Adams has a high standing among us amateur photographers here in Norway, but mainly among those of us shooting medium format, and preferably Hasselblad.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch democrat and I would like to decrease US spending on the military, get us out of Iraq and so on, but as it stands we pay about 4% of GDP on military spending. If we cut it in half, we would have a lot more money to pay for other programs, but it is still chump change compared to what it would cost to create a 66% pension for every American, let alone pay for welfare or health care. The demographics and geography of the US and Scandinavia are just so incredibly different that it does not make sense to compare them. The cost of maintaining our infrastructure alone is gargantuan as we are a huge, spread out country with population throughout the entire country.

As for gas, in Norway it costs around 1.5 euro/liter, right? That's what the AA roadwatch says. That's 7.50/gallon. In the US in my area our cheapest gas (87) is around 3.25/gallon, but premium (91) is about 3.50. If Norway is like Iceland, your gas is 95 octane. Anyway, you are paying double, not 4 times higher. Yes, that's still a hell of a lot more.

I agree with you about health care though. I don't have it through an employer or union, so when I tried to get it in New York, I was quoted anywhere between 5000 and 12000 dollars a year for a basic HMO health plan. That's without even going to the doctor...you still have to pay for things on top of that. I just don't have health insurance because I am young, healthy and making a calculated risk. But the price of health care in the US is utter insanity, particularly for people who don't get insurance from their employers. New York is particularly awful. For example, my friend in a neighboring state pays 1200 dollars a year for the program that was offered to me at 8000. No difference whatsoever except for our zip codes. It was the same company offering the plans and they had the exact same benefits/restrictions and coverage.

But anyway, I am trying not to make this political. It's all totally off topic though, so perhaps I shouldn't be even typing it...
 
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StuartR said:
Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch democrat and I would like to decrease US spending on the military, get us out of Iraq and so on, but as it stands we pay about 4% of GDP on military spending. If we cut it in half, we would have a lot more money to pay for other programs, but it is still chump change compared to what it would cost to create a 66% pension for every American, let alone pay for welfare or health care. The demographics and geography of the US and Scandinavia are just so incredibly different that it does not make sense to compare them. The cost of maintaining our infrastructure alone is gargantuan as we are a huge, spread out country with population throughout the entire country.

As for gas, in Norway it costs around 1.5 euro/liter, right? That's what the AA roadwatch says. That's 7.50/gallon. In the US in my area our cheapest gas (87) is around 3.25/gallon, but premium (91) is about 3.50. If Norway is like Iceland, your gas is 95 octane. Anyway, you are paying double, not 4 times higher. Yes, that's still a hell of a lot more.

I agree with you about health care though. I don't have it through an employer or union, so when I tried to get it in New York, I was quoted anywhere between 5000 and 12000 dollars a year for a basic HMO health plan. That's without even going to the doctor...you still have to pay for things on top of that. I just don't have health insurance because I am young, healthy and making a calculated risk. But the price of health care in the US is utter insanity, particularly for people who don't get insurance from their employers. New York is particularly awful. For example, my friend in a neighboring state pays 1200 dollars a year for the program that was offered to me at 8000. No difference whatsoever except for our zip codes. It was the same company offering the plans and they had the exact same benefits/restrictions and coverage.

But anyway, I am trying not to make this political. It's all totally off topic though, so perhaps I shouldn't be even typing it...
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'Political or not', I agree with all you say except (my Audi Quattro 2,0T uses 98 octane to € 1,65 per liter, otherwise your fuel cost comparison could well be right); what is the difference in 'demographics and geography' that is to our advantage...? I guess that we got a larger part of our population that is not working (children, the old). We are flooded with imigrants and just look up our very little efficient geography, something like Alaska. The difference is that we got a democracy that is better working (but still not perfect). You need a new system.

I am shocked to hear that you don't have any health care insurance. Both my mother and my father is staying nursing homes,- have so for years. It does not cost me a dime. My father has had a big heart operation, - it cost him less than 500 $ the taxi to and fro hospital included. My mother is twice hip operated; the same. Over here we gotm much higher expectations from our political system. The government is expected to 'provide' for the tax money.
 
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StuartR said:
The demographics and geography of the US and Scandinavia are just so incredibly different that it does not make sense to compare them. The cost of maintaining our infrastructure alone is gargantuan as we are a huge, spread out country with population throughout the entire country.
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Amen, as I've said in previous threads much to some Norwegian members' distain - why compare the u.s. to a small country like Norway? It's utterly ridiculous..
The fact is, life in the U.S. is still much, much better than many other places in the world.

Olsen said:
We are flooded with imigrants and just look up our very little efficient geography, something like Alaska. The difference is that we got a democracy that is better working (but still not perfect). You need a new system.

Over here we got much higher expectations from our political system. The government is expected to 'provide' for the tax money.
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A simple observation would say that your country has an economy based almost entirely on a lucrative natural and FINITE resource. Doesn't really take much $ or ingenuity to produce, and the reward is huge. Since the oil is state-owned, and coupled with the high taxes, should it even be a surprise that the government of a small oil rich country has a large cash surplus? Given the above, is the Norwegian government really of a such high quality that they can be put on a pedestal and be gloated by its people for "Going out of your way and being overzealous to get the job done" ? Good luck when the black stuff runs dry. Will the government then get the blame for not diversifying the economy?
 
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Out of the topic... just saw in Amsterdam Free Shop Airport the M8 drop price from 4100€ to 3593€.... and BTW the M8 is build in Portugal not in Germany... just to make her cheaper I guess... and in topic again, our taxes are from 28 to 51% and we still paid for the rest and no guarantees for the future since the Social Security system just went bankrupt... we need more babies...but don't have money to feed or educate them..... and I probably move to Norway or Sweden...
 
migtex said:
Out of the topic... just saw in Amsterdam Free Shop Airport the M8 drop price from 4100€ to 3593€.... and BTW the M8 is build in Portugal not in Germany... just to make her cheaper I guess... and in topic again, our taxes are from 28 to 51% and we still paid for the rest and no guarantees for the future since the Social Security system just went bankrupt... we need more babies...but don't have money to feed or educate them..... and I probably move to Norway or Sweden...
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I have several portugese collegues that have been living in Norway since the early 70'. How can a social security system 'go bankrupt'? Is it privatised...?
 
Olsen said:
-.
You go to the polls and elect politicians that want to spend it all on defence....

I looked up your excellent pictures of the hillbillies etc. Just outside Oslo you will find just a similar area were old bachelors will do moonshine whiskey (to avoid the heavy alcohol tax) etc. Every now and then an house goes up in flames with such an old man as a victim; due to 'an explosion' in the cellar. For that kind of excellent photography you need a Leica....

Ansel Adams has a high standing among us amateur photographers here in Norway, but mainly among those of us shooting medium format, and preferably Hasselblad.
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Unfortunarely electing a president is often the lesser of two evils. We haven't had a good president in the US since Truman who was president when I was a kid. Many woud disagree but I think Nixon was the second best in my time.

Thanks regarding the pix. Moonshining is about gone but in the county where I shot these there are three that i know of. Popcorn, one of the moonshiners I photographed, called me late in the night after I had photographed his still to tell me his 3 stills had been destroyed by fire from one of the burners. I was ther making images an hour and a half before it was destroyed.

I shoot about 60% with my leicas and ZI. The remaining 40% is shot with my Hasselblads, Fuji GSW690III, Fuji G617 and view cameras from 4x5 to 8x10. I seldom shoot 8x10 now but do shoot a good deal of 4x5 and some 5x7.
 
StuartR said:
Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch democrat and I would like to decrease US spending on the military, get us out of Iraq and so on, but as it stands we pay about 4% of GDP on military spending. If we cut it in half, we would have a lot more money to pay for other programs, but it is still chump change compared to what it would cost to create a 66% pension for every American, let alone pay for welfare or health care. The demographics and geography of the US and Scandinavia are just so incredibly different that it does not make sense to compare them. The cost of maintaining our infrastructure alone is gargantuan as we are a huge, spread out country with population throughout the entire country.

As for gas, in Norway it costs around 1.5 euro/liter, right? That's what the AA roadwatch says. That's 7.50/gallon. In the US in my area our cheapest gas (87) is around 3.25/gallon, but premium (91) is about 3.50. If Norway is like Iceland, your gas is 95 octane. Anyway, you are paying double, not 4 times higher. Yes, that's still a hell of a lot more.

I agree with you about health care though. I don't have it through an employer or union, so when I tried to get it in New York, I was quoted anywhere between 5000 and 12000 dollars a year for a basic HMO health plan. That's without even going to the doctor...you still have to pay for things on top of that. I just don't have health insurance because I am young, healthy and making a calculated risk. But the price of health care in the US is utter insanity, particularly for people who don't get insurance from their employers. New York is particularly awful. For example, my friend in a neighboring state pays 1200 dollars a year for the program that was offered to me at 8000. No difference whatsoever except for our zip codes. It was the same company offering the plans and they had the exact same benefits/restrictions and coverage.

But anyway, I am trying not to make this political. It's all totally off topic though, so perhaps I shouldn't be even typing it...
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In my area our 91 octane is $2.78 / gallon. That's what I paid today. As to insurance I'm self employed and pay everything myself. I have excellent insurance that paid all but $2000 of $60,000 a few years ago when I had a major illness and surgery. My insurance is just under $650 per monty for myself and my wife. Our deductable is low at $1,000 per person per year. I pay much less than thers I know.

In shooting my documentary work I've been working with folks with next to nothing. I worked with a couple last week that had $17 total total money between them and have a 4 week old child. The live in a 1 room shack behind the girlfriends grandmothers house and have an electric cord run to their shack to runa a light. The boy friend works cutting trees for a small family business. I took another fellow who's helping me by introducing me to other mountain folks and fed him because he didn't have food for he and his wife. He told me he had $10 to live on. These people have lived in poverty all their lives and know nothing else. They have virtually no education and have never been exposed to the outside world. These people are the ones that fall through the cracks and are forgotten. How sad it is to see people with decaying teeth, sick and starving in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I live in a very upscale area and within 10 minutes of my home you can find people living in poverty.
 
x-ray said:
How sad it is to see people with decaying teeth, sick and starving in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I live in a very upscale area and within 10 minutes of my home you can find people living in poverty.
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America would have to become a socialist country in order to repair the inequities that you experience so much.
 
StuartR said:
Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch democrat and I would like to decrease US spending on the military, get us out of Iraq and so on, but as it stands we pay about 4% of GDP on military spending. If we cut it in half, we would have a lot more money to pay for other programs, but it is still chump change compared to what it would cost to create a 66% pension for every American, let alone pay for welfare or health care.
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With the greatest respect and just to set the record straight; about 20% ($456 Billion) of the US federal government's expenditures each year go toward national defense. That's one dollar in every 5 collected. The 4% of GDP figure is grossly misleading. The only other expense that exceeds defense is spending on Social Security (21.6%). So, cutting the DOD budget would create much more than "chump change".
 
ywenz said:
Amen, as I've said in previous threads much to some Norwegian members' distain - why compare the u.s. to a small country like Norway? It's utterly ridiculous..
The fact is, life in the U.S. is still much, much better than many other places in the world.



A simple observation would say that your country has an economy based almost entirely on a lucrative natural and FINITE resource. Doesn't really take much $ or ingenuity to produce, and the reward is huge. Since the oil is state-owned, and coupled with the high taxes, should it even be a surprise that the government of a small oil rich country has a large cash surplus? Given the above, is the Norwegian government really of a such high quality that they can be put on a pedestal and be gloated by its people for "Going out of your way and being overzealous to get the job done" ? Good luck when the black stuff runs dry. Will the government then get the blame for not diversifying the economy?
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Norway had a wellfare state (tax including health care, etc) long before we found oil. Nor is the wellfare state a norwegian invention. You will find similar systems all over western Europe, - with plusses and minuses; some included, some excluded from the tax bill.

Norway is about as rich as - USA: We have a GNP (PPP) per capita of 47.000 $; the US some 43,000 $. But it is not the total wealth that provides us with health care provided through our tax bill. It is a political desicion (a fierce political struggle, actually) made through elections. It is not the total wealth that is unique in Norway (oil: 28% of GNP) - many nations are rich - it is how the wealth is devided, - and how the democracy is working...

If you find the comparison between two oil producing nations, Norway and USA, unfair; compare yourself then with poorer nations like Sweden (no oil - PPP: 31,600 $), Denmark (very little oil, 37,000 $), Finland (no oil 32,800 ), The Netherlands (very little oil 31,700 $), etc. They got all higher taxes than USA - and far lower GNP/capita than USA, but wellfare systems incuding health care, education, lavish public pension systems etc. You will find that they all got far higher pensions, cheaper and better health care, cheaper education than you in the States. - and, ofcause, higher taxes. High taxes is 'sivilisation as we know it'. If you follow the 'lower taxes' slogan you will end up in Hahiti.

I think it is about hight time that ordinary american citizens put themselves into the wellfare situation of most (not all) european nations and figure out if this would be something for them.

To begin with; see Michael Moore's film Sicko...
 
StuartR said:
I just don't have health insurance because I am young, healthy and making a calculated risk. ...
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While I agree its expensive, you do need some type of insurance in the event of a catastrophic event. What will you do if you are in a car accident and need rehab ? Sometimes, it doesnt matter what your health is....it can be a matter of bad luck or unforseen events. I'd urge you to get some level of protection.

I dont think you'd find many people would agree with your "calculated risk." The oft quoted mantra regarding the importance of insurance is Health insurance first, then short term disability, then life, then LT disability or Long term care insurance ( depends on your age ).... run, dont walk to get some level of coverage...

Dan
 
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Meleica said:
While I agree its expensive, you do need some type of insurance in the event of a catastrophic event. What will you do if you are in a car accident and need rehab ? Sometimes, it doesnt matter what your health is....it can be a matter of bad luck or unforseen events. I'd urge you to get some level of protection.

I dont think you'd find many people would agree with your "calculated risk." The oft quoted mantra regarding the importance of insurance is Health insurance first, then short term disability, then life, then LT disability or Long term care insurance ( depends on your age ).... run, dont walk to get some level of coverage...

Dan
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I fully second!
I also thought I was young and healthy and was quite good at calculating my personal risks.
However, whilst working abroad some years ago, I must have caught - unnoticed - a tick bite and that little bugger infected me not only with Lyme-disease but also TBE. Doctors abroad didn't recognise it and now I am receiving antibiotic treatment for about two years already. Can't tell you when I will be through.
Glad I am living in Old Europe with a - still - decent healthcare system.
So, please, run for some coverage!

Best regards,
Uwe
 
ywenz said:
Amen, as I've said in previous threads much to some Norwegian members' distain - why compare the u.s. to a small country like Norway? It's utterly ridiculous..
The fact is, life in the U.S. is still much, much better than many other places in the world.

All you have to do is look to your northern neighbour to find a country larger than Norway with a similar system to Norway. I cringe when people here in Canada talk about privatizing our health care system. I would not have the gall to tell anyone that I live in the best country in the world but would not trade what we have now for a system that our southern neighbours use. I think that the cost of the two systems is similar if you look at personal taxes paid and then have to add the cost of private health insurance on top of that. I would still prefer a universal health care system that is available to all citizens . In any event you live with the system that you have in place.

Bob
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