Two Small Tips for Kiev 4AM Owners

R

ruben

Guest
Let me start clarifying with which hat I am speaking at this post. This is not part of the Kiev Project, although my next posting within the Project will deal with the same, in different order, extensively, and with pics. Therefore the following is not to be taken as an example, as now I am talking to the gearhead prone people, sending them to prove first the dishes I will be cooking for participants of the Project, somewhat like those unfortunate fellows who had to taste the food the King is going to eat, so that he will not be poisoned.

Now lets plunge. The subject here is softening the Rewind Knob, and choosing the level of stiffness/softness of the the Shutter Release Knob. Both in the Kiev 4AM model, which continues to surprise me as the real Kiev 5 of Soviet re-design.


Tip for softening the Re-wind Knob

As we all know, the general stiffness of all Kievs results from the total accumulation of friction between gears. This total has its first station at the Re-wind knob.

What makes the re-wind knob stiffen of soft? In case the camera has not be cannibalized and remains as sent out of factory, there are two factors controlling friction. The most obvious one is dirt or stiffen grease. The other is a small spring, hidden inside the fork engaging the film cassette, which can be adjusted to the taste of the user, via further turning on, or releasing, the visible screw at the fork throat.

The news is that this spring can be replaced by another one, much softer, already existing in our camera, lazily sleeping without much use. This softer spring is the one found immediately below the shutter release knob.

Therefore, if you like the idea, you can take the soft spring and install it at the Re-wind knob fork, after you have cleaned everything there around, and adjust friction level, "a la carte". My taste is that the Rewind Knob should be ABSOLUTELY free from friction. As much as possible of course.



Tip for adjusting the depht of the Shutter Release Knob

Along the years we have come to meet different shutter release knobs. Some are extremely far from the actual firing point, as for example the Yashica G series, some are extremely short , as for example in the Yashica Lynx 1000, and all the others in the middle with their tendencies to either camp.

Personally I love the short travel one, and this is the type found at all Kiev and Contaxes for my luck. But it seems to me that from all Kievs, the one at the Kiev 4AM/Kiev 4M has the shortest travel. Therefore hereby I offer you three levels of travel depht into the center of Earth.

a) the shortest travel is when you remove the exististing spring below the shutter release knob. The camera has no problem at all in any sense with this arrangement.

b) The medium level travel is with the original spring comming with the camera, the same spring I said above it can be better used for the Re-wind knob.

c) The longest level travel ( always within the cathegory of short travel) is if you choose to install the relatively hard spring, formerly placed by Arsenal factory at the fork of the Re-wind knob.

I myself still prefer having my 4AM without any kind of spring below the shutter release knob, but it is a matter of purely personal taste. "A la carte".

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Ruben

You did not warn about frame spacing?
You may create customers for my how to fix your frame spacing service? I like customers...

Noel
 
Hi Ruben Hi Noel!

Frame spacing that is my problem!!! I may ghve the photos to show my problem at hand later but noww....
Is there any way to particicpate in your findings
 
Are you implying that there is a relation between softening/stiffening both the REWIND knob, or the SHUTTER RELEASE BUTTON, to frame spacing ?


Anyhow, if you would like to put your service in written, many folks need it will learn, me the first.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Ruben
The spring in the forks is the clutch spring that controls the frame spacing, if you do more then clean its washers you vary the frame spacing a lot...
Spider67
If you are not tearing sprockets it best to leave well enough alone.
If you want to be brave then I'll post instructions.
The 1st steps need watchmakers screwdrivers, care, and an organic solvent, you clean the clutch mechanisms washers, this may get you back to factory settings which were not necessarily wonderful, even a Contax will give strange spacing.
How often do you tear sprockets?
Noel
 
Xmas said:
Ruben
The spring in the forks is the clutch spring that controls the frame spacing, if you do more then clean its washers you vary the frame spacing a lot...
Noel
Click to expand...


Hi Noel,
Really really excuss me as sometimes my head tends to be quite flat. Are you saying that the spring inside the fork of the REWIND knob plays a role in frame spacing ?

Sorry for insisting,
Ruben
 
Ruben

Apologies, the bulk of the friction when rewinding is the take up fork spring clutch drag, only the sprocket shaft freewheels, when you push the rewind knob/alter the latch to rewind. If you want you can discard the spring in some kievs rewind knobs although I've not looked at a 4m.

I'll have a look at my 4m next.

Noel
 
Hi Noel,

In my first posting at this thread I proposed to exchange the springs of the SHUTTER RELEASE BUTTON and the REWINDING KNOB. The option of discarding the spring is for the SHUTTER RELEASE BUTTON only.

The Rewind Knob of the 4AM will not work at all without a spring.

But I am very glad to learn from you that the level FRICTION of the WINDING FORK is what regulates frame spacing. Would you like to comfirm ?

Cheers,
Ruben
 
I have a 4A which is obviously different. There is no clutch on the rewind knob.
I am having problems with spacing. Sometimes grossly overlapping, sometimes (very) widely spaced.
I am having trouble seeing how the non-existent rewind tension affects spacing if no tearing of the sprocket holes isn't occring. It isn't. The rewind is friction free.
One turn of the sprocket wheel should give one frame, exactly. The take-up spool tension seems to me to be reasonable, compared to the 4 which has no problems.
Should the take-up be 'soft' or quite firm (which it is)?
I was able to adjust the tension on the Zorki4 OK with a screwdriver (IIRC) but no adjustment so simple appears to be possible with the Kiev 4A.
I tried to challenge the winder with finger pressure to see if perhaps a tooth was missing from the winder, but to no result.
What else can I do to diagnose the problem?
All sugestions welcome.
Murray
 
Ruben (first)

Tried my 4m if you tap the open lever on top the rewind shaft does not spin but neither is their any detectable friction, so I'll have to strip one day to find out what is underneath there.
But...
If you were trying to drag a heavy load the friction might increase so I did try counter holding the forks and my 4m still seemed to have no or almost no friction.
Ok...
The next part is a request for test for Ruben.
If you wind on the shutter the sprocket shaft should lock but the friction on the rewind spool should remain and the spool can be dragged in either direction?
If you now push the button at the base of the sprocket shaft then the shaft should turn freely but the take up spool friction (drag) remains (the same).

If there is any friction in the rewind shaft when you are rewinding then it will be multiplied by the load (drag) from the take up spool shaft clutch, as when you are rewinding you need to drag each inch of the film off the spool. So you need to read the next bit with new interest...


A brief for Kiev users...
You only need to undo one screw, unless you have a 4(a)m
The Kiev (and Contax) are not like Leicias (hey we know that) in leicias (and clones) the sprocket shaft pulls the film the take up spool merely keeps the film tight enough over the just less than 90 degree of turn (wrap around) the sprocket shaft to avoid sprocket tooth jump. In Kiev (and Contax) the sprocket shaft (by comparison almost merely) meters the sprocket holes the film is dragged by the take up spool, until sufficient film passes the shaft when the shaft locks and the spool clutch has to slip, (or damage the film holes). (as the film on the spool builds up in radius the take up spool drive (clutch) has to slip more and more, as the same length of film has to be advanced each time.

If the clutch friction is too tight, and the shaft drive worn then the frame spacing which is poor in a new and adjusted camera can be bad with overlaps or torn sprockets or both! Butted frames are normal even with a CONTAX II, if the friction is not enough the film can slip off the teeth of the shaft...

The friction on the spool clutch is controlled by washers a spring and grime/wax residue, it is simple to clean this mechanism and that may be enough, otherwise it is add washers or compress or stretch the spring. If you only have butting frames and no overlap and no torn frames stop reading and go to bed happy, dont think about doing the following.

With a 4(a)m remove the plate which holds the spool in place, You need to correct watch makers screw driver, no Ru table knives. You need s deep plastic bin (a storage one >10 cm deep is ideal), (other wise a Dyson and a large magnet will be necessary to recover the screws, the washers will be gone they just dissappear.)

Remove the spool plate, then remove the spool carefully, as the screw in the centre of the driving forks, may be loose, and ping, ping into the deep shag. Loosen the screw in the centre of the forks, Counter hold the forks with padded pliers as the drive teeth can be stripped easily, especially if the camera is worn. That is don't torque the large screw on the driving gears, you will be real sorry.

When the screw in centre of forks turns unscrew it carefully and lift away the forks and screw (in one pisce) - you will need a pencil to note the sequence of washers, between the screw and the forks, before you separate them. The parts above the forks will also come away and you need a note of their relative positions, washer spring washer etc....

Clean washers with organic solvent, (C2H5OH will do), reassemble.

If the spool friction is not different of if the scrap film test fails you need to add washers or remove washers etc.

If you have a film that is cheap/scrap then you need to load it & wind on as normally, then fire the shutter on B (lock the B setting) and mark the film gate position each side of gate, on each frame, remove the lens. If it is neither overlapping nor holes damaged when the film is finished and you unwind it to inspect in daylight, you are done. and can shoot film.

If you have overlaps or torn sprockets then you need to adjust the clutch friction to be more or less. If you want less and have an engineers vise or pliers with parrallegram action then a gently squeeze of spring will reduce clutch friction. (and send the spring into oblivion of shag or orbit.) If you need more friction then you need to find a small washer to pad the spring unless you have an engineering works to stretch the spring.

Hint The friction need not be high, easy to turn with thumb on spool edge should be ok, all mine have been too high so Ive not seen the other syndrome, and dont expect anything but butting frames, we are only going to try to avoid the big overlaps or torn sprockets...

Ruben will proof read this now as his English if better then mine...

Noel
PS the driving gears may be worn, if you suspect gear wear or the fork shaft has a lot of axial play that needs the top plate off, much more difficult.
 
Great input Noel ! Really great. I hardly could describe my hapiness about it.

The most important thing you are revealing me here, and I was always thinking about it but in the wrong direction, is that the the load (the responsibility) of the winding process is in the sprockets, not on the winding spool fork. This is simply great as from here all other things unfold.

Accordingly, will i be correct in assesing from the above that the level of friction of the WINDING fork should be rather minimal, just to serve as "company" to the pushing film sprokets ?

Finally, when i addressed the issue of friction at the REwinding knob, it was just as a matter of easying the pressure on the WINDING knob.

As for all other things you mentioned, some are understable to me, some are not and I wil clarify them via PM.
 
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Ruben

I tried to explain it best rather than most accurate, it is like ropes on a bollard.

The friction on the rewind forks you have is bad and I never thought about it before as my cameras dont have much. The sprocket drive has to defeat this friction, the light trap friction, and the pressure plate friction, while the rewind shaft is turning rapidly for frame one, as there is a large coil of film, and the radius on the spool is large. When the film in the cassette is tensioned.

The take up forks at this time have to pull hard enough to keep the sprocket holes intact, and to avoid the film coming off the take up spool, my spools use friction for attachment.

That is the initial phase.

When you get to 30 frames the take up spool has a large coil (a large radius) and if the friction on the take up spool is too high rip goes the film.

This last bad thing is what happens to my cameras, which have problems. If you slacken off the take up friction too much you might have the film detach from the take up spool, or the film tear at the beginning, when the film in the cassette is under tension, and has a large radius.

And all this also depends on how you wind on and if you block the rewind knob motion, accidently...

But I'd fix your rewind knob friction first as this will help wind on & spacing...

The frame spacing is too difficult, it seems to be wear on the gear wheels but I've never bothered to investigate, when my Kievs work such that the film does not tear, I shoot with them. Both Contax are similar.

Noel
 
Hi Noel,

In a few hours, as soon as I am back at home, I will perform the dry test you suggested, about inserting blank film, wind-mark the frame-fire, and so forth.

Fortunately I have a starting point in that my Kiev 4AM has its take up spool very very tight, and produces large frame spaces of about 1/2 a frame. This suggests that tight take up fork = large spacing. Let's see if loose take up fork produces overlapping and then we will have found a direct relationship between the take up fork and frame spacing.

If so, then you have discovered the method of finding the right level of friction - via dry film marking ! Wow, it sounds promising. But tests are tests, and they bring surprises too.

Cheers,
Ruben

My 4AM has been just CLA-ed by me, so it is an ideal candidate. But one thing you write I do not understand at all, and it why you think my REWIND fork/knob is not working propperly.
 
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Ruben

The rewind fork should have no friction, if it does it will wear the gears in the wind on mechanism, which don't seem to have much life, and it will make the friction on the take up fork clutch more critical and difficult to adjust so you get resonable spacing throughout 36 frames.

Have you stripped and lubed it, one should be able to tolerate a light Li grease, if the friction is a spring relaxing the spring with pliers seems a first plan.

None of my Kievs do 1/2 a frame, from memory, most do butt to butt to 0.5mm overlap, with some tearing at frame 28-34... before I fix them so they dont tear, they still seem to be close afterwards.

The friction of the take up spool need not be high - easy to turn with the pad of the thumb is what I try for, but if the film test with pencil is ok - leave well alone.

If you have 1/2 a frame gaps then you may need to give the spring a squeeze or file a washer, the spring is really difficult to set so it is shorter, unless you have good hand tools... Id not recommend any lube although I might be tempted to try rubbing a soft pencil lead on to the spring and washers mating surfaces, before trying bending the spring.

Dont forget to counter hold the forks, if the screw is tight, the gears look fragile.

Noel
 
Hi Noel,
I have just finnished the first part of my test, comfirming what I said at my first post in this thread, and what you say in your last post, that the friction of the REWIND FORK plays no part in the frame spacing if it is absolutely free of friction itself, and therefore my "tip" about puting there a softer spring, continues to stand.

As for the test I performed I will open in some minutes a new thread, but first a steak.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
Xmas said:
Ruben
...................
If you have 1/2 a frame gaps then you may need to give the spring a squeeze or file a washer, the spring is really difficult to set so it is shorter, unless you have good hand tools... ...........Noel
Click to expand...


Hi Noel,
What SPRING are you talking about ? After disassembling the take up spool (kiev 4AM) and the fork, I have not seen any spring, just a mess of washers.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Xmas said:
Ruben

All my kievs have this assembly...

http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/shutter winding mechanism.html

Is any of yours like this, have you stripped the take up side?

Noel
P.S. if not I'll have to strip mine
Click to expand...

Sorry Noel, the 4AM FORK COMPOUND is TOTALLY different. And it makes sense for it to be different since it is moving a "fixed" (although dismountable) take up spool. Therefore the friction is not controlled by a spring, but by amount of spacing washers.

But thanks for the link, I never read that part. Shame on me. As for other Kiev models, of course the picture you link us to is indeed actual.

In case you are going to strip yours, I warn you there is a mess there.
Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Ruben

Inoccent little lamb, I'll take my fork apart, my 4am is straight from box no Ru kitchen top maintenance, note it will tear sprocket holes.

Noel
 
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