Metering Issues...

[alternatve]

Hello all,

I've been busy with school, so haven't had the opportunately to shoot much with my Kiev. But I have been shooting here and there. The J8 is fantastic, and I am addicted to the contax hold and the look of the Kiev (and those around me when they see my camera)

However, I have reached a major stumbling block, which is a lack of a meter. Now I have a perfectly good lighting chart that I can refer to to set the camera, but the trouble is, I'm lazy. Why think about what EV reading it is when you can get something else to do it for you. 😉 Also, my shooting speed is considerbly slower as I have to think about what EV it is, refer to the table to get the right f/stop and speed then only compost and shoot. It does save on film, but it's terrible for snapshots.

So, I'm looking for a lightmeter that is small, light, easy to use and relatively cheap. Taking the factors into consideration, I have pinpointed two meters that would serve my purpose, a VCII meter and a Sverdlovsk-4. The VC II is undoubtly great, but I can get a Sverdlovsk-4 AND a Fed 2 (which I have been eyeing as well) for around $100 cheaper then a single VCII meter. However, I have doubts about the reliability of the Sverdlovsk-4.

So I would like to put up a question for a discussion; to get a modern VCII meter and eat peanut butter for a week or get a Sverdlovsk-4 and possibly a fed2 in the bargain and risk both of them not working when they finally get to me?

Thanks in advance

Samuel

 

[jbf]

Actually I am somewhat in the same boat as you are. I would like to learn to be an exposure master through sunny f16 rule, memorization, etc but I simply dont have the time right now.

 

[wyk_penguin]

If you don't work with artificial lighting/shoot at night, the sunny 16 rule is your best friend.

 

[Bryce]

Best is to buy a good handheld meter and learn to use it.
Using rules of thumb to 'guesstablish' exposure is a good thing to be able to do, but ultimately the meter will give better results for anything but scenes lit by very predictable sources- like direct sunlight during the middle of the day.
How ever you do it, do it!

 

[mcgrattan]

There are lots of cheap meters around. If you don't mind selenium meters then you could go with a Leningrad-4 or Leningrad-8 to stay with the soviet theme. I have one and it's actually quite good when used with the incident light meter attachment. Not very good in low light levels, though.

Also, the Weston meters are pretty much the industry standard selenium meter. I have a Weston master V with the invercone, and it's a fantastic piece of kit. Only reads down to about EV3 or EV4 so not brilliant in very low light levels, but otherwise, great. The manual for it is also very good.

 

[laptoprob]

The shady 5,6 trick does a lot for me. Almost all shadows are f5,6 like full sun is f16 (three stops difference).
Overcast days often are f8 because not-too-heavy shade acts as a giant duffuser. When I start pinching my eyes in brighter light it proves to be around EV13 on my Gossen Digisix, that means f8.
So I guess I am learning to guess.
Lowlight is more difficult though...

 

[payasam]

JBF, the time will make itself if what you spend shooting is also spent learning.

Compost, Samuel? Never knew photography was connected to fertiliser.

 

[alternatve]

JBF, the time will make itself if what you spend shooting is also spent learning.

Compost, Samuel? Never knew photography was connected to fertiliser.

Ah, that would be compose. That's what you get when you rush out a long post.

I prefer CDS meter cells myself. Selenium does not last too long I hear?

 

[wolves3012]

Ah, that would be compose. That's what you get when you rush out a long post.

I prefer CDS meter cells myself. Selenium does not last too long I hear?

Seleniums are usually reckoned to be good for 20 years if looked after. Damp is a killer and they degrade when left exposed to light. Keep them dry and in the dark (except for when taking readings!) and they can last a while. I have a Weston Master III and IV and both are still working, 40+ years on...

 

[outfitter]

I find the Sverdlovsk-4 reliable and very handy (small and light). All I can say is I frequently carry a Sverdlovsk-4 rather than my bulky Gossen Luna Pro, Weston Ranger 9 or Minolta digital.

I like selenium meters but they are all getting old. My Weston IV and Weston V just died on me and I'm left with a working Weston II (the meter I started with a half century ago) and a new Sekonic Studio Deluxe.

Michael

 

[shadowfox]

To me, the Kiev is a sleek, discreet RF with good lenses, it's not a studio camera, nor it is an action camera, so the only way to really enjoy it is -- as you say -- on the street, without meter. No hesitating, pausing, checking, just *do* it. You'll learn the sunny 16 and how to effectively use it within two to three rolls of film.

It is *not* as brain-taxing as you think it is 🙂, it's actually more fun than relying on the meter and when it got fooled, you'll be very frustrated when you see the picture later.

Plus, you're in Singapore, there's plenty of sunshine and even when it's cloudy and raining, the rule still works.

 

[Xmas]

I use a Weston II, I have tree Weaton V that have dead cells.

But it is simpler to shoot film while you get a meter, a meter is something that stops you pushing the release, while you hve it in hand and not in pocket..

HCB's printer grumbled about HCB badly exposed negatives...

Noel

 

[ruben]

Hi Samuel,
Indeed you are touching the Acquilles weakness of the Kievs. Since you are looking for gaining time and make exposures quick and as best as possible within this limitation (quick), I would recommend a meter enabling you incident readings (that white dome). This would be average readings which will work most of the times, not allways.

Then, the fastest and easier meters to read are the digital ones. I think Fedka is offering a quite cheap one. On the other extreme of high quality meters, but still small in size you have two types of digital Sekonic 308 meters.

Now, if you go this path you will remain a meter slave for life. But you could apply a nice tactic to start learning level lights, and it is that every time before you push the meter button you make a guess. It will not delay you so much, ceirtaintly compared to using a non-digital meter which are much more slow to read. With time you will start grasping your byasses and hopefully use the meter less and less, when quick decisions are required.

At a second stage of this, whenever you are in a shooting mode, you can take an incident reading of an open shade (the shadow in a wall produced by the sun in an open area), and then guess the compensations for darker and lighter areas. Upon your former experience your guesses will be quite good.

So far as your immediate purpose. After you feel relief you may identify some situations in which you do have the time to use more accurate and creative ways of metering light using a light meter.

For this end, the digital meters are the worst as they don't provide the dials for reading different possibilities and compensations, like for example a good working Weston Master. But this is much ahead.

My phylosophy is that first of all we must make our Kievs workable.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

Hi Samuel,
in my above post I forgot two things.

If you are going to try to learn light levels as explained, it is of the utmost importance, you make your mind about one single ISO to be used for your self training period. BTW, most of the greatest photographers use a single ISO.

Secondly, I am going soon to study if it is possible to use the meters on the metered models for quick exposures. This may involve some change of the engravings.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[clarence]

Samuel, I'm coming back to Singapore. I might be getting rid of one of my simple meters.

Clarence

 

[ruben]

Hello all,

................So I would like to put up a question for a discussion; to get a modern VCII meter and eat peanut butter for a week or get a Sverdlovsk-4 and possibly a fed2 in the bargain and risk both of them not working when they finally get to me?

Thanks in advance

Samuel

Hi Samuel,

I have been thinking about the question you forwarded, since then, and my conclusion are these:

a) Any shoe mount meter poses the problem that you cannot mount an auxiliary view finder for other lenses, unless you dismount the shoe mount meter first, then install the auxiliary view finder, before or after you have changed the lenses. All this proceeding will take time.

b) But a shoe mount meter will be effective in case most of your shooting is done with the standard lenses.

c) Since I use to change quite often between the standard lens and the wide angle, I have a problem here.

d) Now where the issue of metering light becomes acute ? There is no problem in two situations: 1-metering sunlit situations, as the Sunny rule over rules any metering, 2 - when using flash. But the problem starts when metering two types of situations: a- shadows, since the vary a lot. b- interiors whe don't know beforehand. And at these situations most sellenium meters find their weakness. Therefore we are talking about digital, no shoe mount, compact meters with incindent reading capabilities for the quickest possible metering. Good working sellenium Weston Masters are reliable, and I own them, but for incident readings their big white dome is for me too much attention attracting. Perhaps this is not an issue for you.

e) Therefore I go back to three digital meters. One of the best enjoying the broad backing of the RFF dwellers is the Sekonic L308. There is another digital meter whose size is to be checked, manufactured by Gossen. And there is the digital one sold by Fedka.

Separate hand meters, specially the small Sekonic, are used by the most seasoned pros, carrying the most advanced cameras. I still remember a TV documental about a very famous photojournalist, in which he is barely seen during a clash of Palestinian civilians with the Israeli Army, within a cloud of gas/people flying away/earth dust, raising his hand up with a hand meter to get an incident reading.

The incident reading is the most secure one under stress and it is not given by any camera.

Of course that having a separate hand meter without an AE camera will necessarily make us f e e l we loose opportunities, but with time we will become more and more effective with what we have, and overcome that feeling. Comming to terms with loosing opportunities is of the hardest things to come to terms with. But paradoxically it is a kind of precondition to advance.


Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Penauts are tasty, specially with beer.

 

[nzeeman]

i have a leningrad meter and it meters quite good - even in low light. up to 1/30 f/2 on 400 asa (ev5 maybe even ev4) - if i remember correctly. thats enough for me. if light is even lower
just put your kiev on 1/5 or 1/10 with f/2 and you will get decent shots. maybe you will not get perfect exposure- but it will be usable.

 

[skibeerr]

consideraeobly slower

consideraeobly slower

Hello all,
Also, my shooting speed is considerbly slower as I have to think about what EV it is, refer to the table to get the right f/stop and speed then only compost and shoot. It does save on film, but it's terrible for snapshots.
Samuel

Thing I am trying now is, when faced with a situation where snapshots might ocur, to be prepared. Get the combination of speed and aperture ready before anything happens and try hyperfocal to determine the zone you want sharp.

Thinking is good for you!

btw Try the Dutch version of "sate with peanut sauce" Like the great Dundee said:
Tastes like......live on it, altough a little constipated. 😀

 

[Xmas]

Pre '60 few people used photographic meters, they used the table on the box, or a separate table (Kodak did real nice tables), or a circular slide rule.

In early '60 with the advent of colour film i.e. near 100% use of colour, the manufacturers reduces the 2.5 stop safety factor in the film speed of B&W to 1.25...

Set the camera at end of day for the next day from the met forcast, if it is cloudy instead, adjust the camera, be like HCB get the shot, screw up the exposure.

Noel

 

[alternatve]

Hello all,

First off, I would like to thank all for your very informative comments. I've been mute as I was away studying for my exams. Thankfully they are over so that I can go back shooting! However, now I am stuck. I don't want to be stuck with a meter and neither do I want to get 35 under and/or overexposed shots. (However, it seems that I still can overexpose the picture with a fully working meter on my X-700.) Actually, I do get great shots from memorising metering rules using a metering table, but I get stuck at weird metering situations (and, well, lazy). Both the VCII and the russian lightmeter are both quite basic meters, so I think they'll get fooled by the same tricky situation as my brain. So is the Sekonic L308 the way to go then? I'm about to get a Nikon F2AS to replace my D70, so I can use the Sekonic to supplement the meter in the F2 as well. I use ISO400 almost exclusively, it being very flexible by allowing me to shoot outdoors or indoors.

So have I answered my own question? Stick with TTE (Through The Eyes) metering first and then supplement with a Sekonic when I see fit?

Also, I have (tried) to use a Kiev in street photography before, and have found it painfully slow, mostly due to my inexperience. The viewfinder is small and the patch blurres out sometimes. Winding the camera lets me train my arm and hip muscles. And the biggest irk is loading film. If I don't have tape or scissors, I won't be able to install it in. That being said, it's an excellent camera, giving me great photos despite being built earlier then my country!

Regards,
Samuel