How many M8s has Leica sold and what are the problems/down sides (if any)

S

sgy1962

Well-known
Local time
4:43 AM
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
238
Well the title says it all.

I'm just curious how many M8s Leica has sold, and do any users now, after a little bit of time using the M8, have any comments (either positive or negative) regarding the transition from a film M to an M8.
 
The M8 is awesome. Flawed? Yes, but improving with each upgrade. I still get the venetian blind image review on too frequent a basis. That's my only real aggravation.
Steve
 
I'm also interested in whether those who transitioned from a film M to an M8 would do something differently, now in hindsight, like whether there initial lens selection was correct or the need for a new computer or take a course on how to process photos on the computer or anything like that.
 
It appears to be selling as fast as they can make them.

Problems:

1) Sensitive to IR. Synthetic clothing etc can take on a magenta cast. The solution is to use an IR filter on the lens. Oddly enough many super expensive medium format backs have the same problem. On the other hand the extra IR sensitivity make the M8 a superb black and white machine.

2) The frame lines are very loose. Be prepared to crop a lot. I haven't tried a 28 on the M8 yet, but it's supposed to frame the most accurate of all focal lengths. Try it for yourself at a dealer. I spoke to one of the beta testers and he said that Leica got an earful about this from almost everyone who tested the camera and is working on a solution.

3) M8 + 2/28 Summicron ASPH = $8000
 
sgy1962 said:
Well the title says it all.

I'm just curious how many M8s Leica has sold, and do any users now, after a little bit of time using the M8, have any comments (either positive or negative) regarding the transition from a film M to an M8.
Click to expand...

I have no idea of how many M8 Leica has sold, but certainly 'not enough'. Shall Leica and the M-system survive the future the M8 must be a undisputable success. I am not sure that they are there yet.

What's good about M8:

- RAW files look just superb.
- Compact, exclusive and discrete.
- Takes M-lenses
- One of the best wide angle digital cameras on the market (with WATE).

What's not so good:

- The jpg files right out of the camera looks bad with artifacts. You must make jpgs through the raw files!

- The purple fabrics. - Really, for me, I don't bother much, but my brother in law looks like hotel doorman in his dark blazer that looks purple on all my M8 shots (He thinks that I am an complete idiot that has spent so much money in such a lousy camera. He is right). No, I have not received the UV/IR filters yet. Called for them first in beginning of May. Nor am I particularly optimistic about their effect.

- Phase One raw converter is not intuitive to use, and a laughingly primitive. You have to go through PS too.

I knew about the purple fringe beforehand and I don't regret buying it. I love my M8. I use it more than my Canon 1Ds II which is bulky and heavy and makes people stiffen up when I point it at them. - Some small children start to cry...

I very much want one of the very few and small european camera producers to survive the digital future, - I am an european myself. I bought the M8 because I want the excellent M-system to survive and to see a M9 one day.
 
I think you have to keep this in the "Leica perspective". I don't think Leica has shipped that many cameras in the whole history of the company. You'd have to compare it to the numbers of M bodies sold historically and see what number keeps Leica in the green.

/T
 
Well, here are some comparison numbers from Gandy's website. 12-15k is not a smash hit in comparison to Leica's own history, let alone Canon.

from: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicaMcameraList.htm

Camera | Year | Units produced

Leica M3 1954-1966 226,178​
Leica MP 1956-1957 449​
Leica M2 1958-1967 85,200​
Leica MP2 1958-1959 527​
Leica M1 1959-1964 9650 -- simplified M2 without rangefinder for Visoflex and scientific use​
Leica MD 1964-1966 3475 -- simplified M1 without rangefinder/viewfinder for scientific use​
Leica M4 1967-1975 59,441​
Leica MDa 1966-1976 14,925 simplified M4 without rangefinder/viewfinder for scientific use​
Leica M5 1971-1975 33,900​
Leica CL 1973-1976 65,000​
Minolta CL 1973-1976 20,000 ??? -- Leica CL with Minolta nameplate for Japanese market ​
Leica M4-2 1978-1980 17,100​
Leica M4-P 1981-1987 22,444​
Leica M6 1984-1999 132,454​
Leica M6TTL 1998-2002 TTL flash​
Leica MP 2003-​
Leica MP-3 2006 1000


​
 
Last edited:
Tuolumne said:
What number of units do you think would make for "an unequivocal success"?

/T
Click to expand...

In some old thread I read a speculation that 15.000 in the first year would be an impossible target. At any rate at the moment they are able to sell more cameras than they can build and there is a huge backlog in lens orders - I would call that a succes.
As to the thread - yes, there are downsides and it certainly is not an universal camera for everybody, but it produces high-quality files, has the real Leica M feel and seems to have gotten over the teething troubles in reliability. The IR "issue"is in reality a non-issue, is as much as that there are more cameras out there with that kind of sensitivity in varying degrees, like the RD1, Nikon D70, some mid-format digital backs etc. and photographers cope without problem. The reasoning behind this design decision is sound and the failure was in communicating.
Love it or hate it - to those that appreciate the camera it is un-put-downable.

Olsen said:
- The purple fabrics. - Really, for me, I don't bother much, but my brother in law looks like hotel doorman in his dark blazer that looks purple on all my M8 shots (He thinks that I am an complete idiot that has spent so much money in such a lousy camera. He is right). No, I have not received the UV/IR filters yet. Called for them first in beginning of May. Nor am I particularly optimistic about their effect.
Click to expand...

I have a very strong suspicion you'll be pleasantly surprised...
But- you should have them by now. Most M8 owners have.


sgy1962 said:
I'm also interested in whether those who transitioned from a film M to an M8 would do something differently, now in hindsight, like whether there initial lens selection was correct or the need for a new computer or take a course on how to process photos on the computer or anything like that.
Click to expand...

The lens question is a very relevant one. I made a number of mistakes and am correcting them now.
Firstly, the impact of the sensor crop turned out to be far less than I anticipated. I thought I would shift one focal length, but in reality all my lenses "feel" similar to what they were on film. As a result, I sold off the Tri- Elmar, which I expected to be my standard lens.
I expected the 24 to turn into a 35-like lens, but in my hands, though a superb lens, it was the same unloved focal length it was before.
What do I use now- mainly 21, 35, 50 and 90. The 1.4/75 Summilux for its beautiful plasticity, the 135 and 15 for obvious reasons (the usability of the 135 was a very pleasant surprise).

As to computer skills: fewer than with the digital Canon I shot before. C1 is, if the mind and the program mesh, as they do in my case, a beautifully simple and intuitive program. Do the cropping,resizing if needed, sharpening (if needed - very little) and general enhancement (again- it needs but little if at all) in Photoshop Elements 5, and that is all you really need. The computer. Photoshop needs 1 GB of RAM., the harddisk needs a lot of space That is all.
A good monitor and a calibration tool like the Spyder are essential imo.
I use an online printing service and a professional lab for my printing, getting results I could never attain myself. So no extra costs for the printer, nor printer calibration headaches.
 
Last edited:
I'm reconsidering what a "smash hit" might be.

If you divide the number of units by the total number of years in production, you get interesting results. 18848 cameras/year for the m3; 8830 cameras/year for the m6. Since these are two of Leica's most successful models, I'll guess that 8000 units of more a year for the m8 is a success for them. Certainly 12-15k units would be great.

If the m8 is selling in the 12-15k units/year range (or even if that is demand that Leica cannot fill), this would also bode well for another digital rangefinder to enter the fray. Reaching way back to economics, I'd expect market participants to enter wherever there are above average profits, and for them continue to enter until profits are driven down to an average level acceptable to investors. So here's to the m8: sell well!
 
I am getting my 3rd M8 this am. From what I understand it is fresh stock, so I am quite interested in see any differences in my previous two. My first M8 was one very first batches of M8 units sold.
 
Do you mean you now have 3 M8's, or that this is a replacement? I'm very curious too what differences you can find*, and BTW what are the first 3 #'s in the serial of this latest one?

*in particular, but not limited to:
-- difference in frameline size
-- difference in on/of switch detent strength
-- difference in construction of the way the body latches the baseplate
-- presence or lack of shutter oil splatter on the sensor when first used

I'm seriously needing to make a decision yay or nay before the fence marks on my perineum become permanent :D
 
Ben Z said:
Do you mean you now have 3 M8's, or that this is a replacement? I'm very curious too what differences you can find*, and BTW what are the first 3 #'s in the serial of this latest one?

*in particular, but not limited to:
-- difference in frameline size
-- difference in on/of switch detent strength
-- difference in construction of the way the body latches the baseplate
-- presence or lack of shutter oil splatter on the sensor when first used

I'm seriously needing to make a decision yay or nay before the fence marks on my perineum become permanent :D
Click to expand...

Dear Ben

You HAVE made a career of sitting on the fence. I will say however, you haven't become bitter about it, like some.

As a satisfied M8 owner but one how admits the warts, I am a little puzzled by concern #2 and #3.

*the switch detent on early models was a little weak. My Feb model is fine and haven't heard about any problem for a long time.

*the body latch thing was a one time event by someone who dropped his camera. I checked out my camera and everything was/is fine. In terms of the design being flawed, only time will tell but I haven't heard a peep about anyone else with a problem. Personally I like the way it is designed. The 2 part magnesium body isn't too thrilling but it would be highly impractical to try and cram all that electronics in a unitary casting.

Give up and go for it. You know you will eventially. Why wait when you can have it NOW :cool:

Rex
or you can wait until your nearly dead
 
Tuolumne said:
I think you have to keep this in the "Leica perspective". I don't think Leica has shipped that many cameras in the whole history of the company. You'd have to compare it to the numbers of M bodies sold historically and see what number keeps Leica in the green.

/T
Click to expand...

Less than 12,000 Ms made in history? HA I wish! Then my M6 would be less run-of-the-mill..
 
mackigator said:
I'm reconsidering what a "smash hit" might be.

If you divide the number of units by the total number of years in production, you get interesting results. 18848 cameras/year for the m3; 8830 cameras/year for the m6. Since these are two of Leica's most successful models, I'll guess that 8000 units of more a year for the m8 is a success for them. Certainly 12-15k units would be great.

If the m8 is selling in the 12-15k units/year range (or even if that is demand that Leica cannot fill), this would also bode well for another digital rangefinder to enter the fray. Reaching way back to economics, I'd expect market participants to enter wherever there are above average profits, and for them continue to enter until profits are driven down to an average level acceptable to investors. So here's to the m8: sell well!
Click to expand...

The fly in the ointment for Leica is that almost all of these earlier M cameras had a very long lifetime, in some cases almost a couple of decades. That lets them amortize their R&D costs over many years. With cameras now coming out in digital time, they only have a few years to amortize their R&D costs. On this basis alone, I would say Leica has to sell many more cameras per year than it has in the past to stay solvent.

/T
 
Tuolumne said:
I would say Leica has to sell many more cameras per year than it has in the past to stay solvent.

/T
Click to expand...

Whatever side of the fence one is on, you have to admit that Leica and M system has much less relevancy in the photography world today than it did when film was king. Leica wll never sell more digital Ms than it sold any particular model of the film M, thus the digital M will NOT save the company. Selling to soccer mums will however.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom