What's Next For Leica?

[CameraQuest]

Digital CL in the works ?

Digital CL in the works ?

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

 

[SteveM(PA)]

How 'bout a winding crank that can be used optionally. All-brass black lacquer body with upgradeable CCD.

 

[raid]

A digital lower cost D-CLE with fullsized sensor and AF digital lenses and 100% viewfinder would be great. We might as well "optimize". Leitz could have an agreement with Luigi to have each D-CLE covered by a custom Luigi camera case.

Now that would be great.

 

[Ben Z]

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

Personally I would rather see Leica have an identical M8 built for them in China so they could sell it for $2000 rather than a stripped-down CL derivative made in Germany for the same price. Leica could still sell the same M8 only built in Solms for $5000 to those people to whom it matters.

 

[raid]

... and build the D-CLE in China for $1000?

 

[clintock]

A full frame digital black and white only body. If you want color, use a tripod and three filters- then combine.
Low noise, high speed, no frindges, just shades of grey. Perhaps the sensor array with two or three different sensitivities available, to curve the response and prevent blowing/blocking.
Soccer moms have Canon.

 

[StuartR]

It seems pretty much everyone wants two things: full frame and lower cost. Perhaps they should do something like Canon and split the line in two: One camera can be full frame, maximum resolution with cost being less of a barrier (1Ds Mk II), the other could be a more compact, cheaper camera with a 1.3x and the current 10mp (not so much a 1D as a non full frame 5D). Obviously you can't please everyone all the time, but by offering a cost no object spec-ed out version and a more conservatively spec-ed and lower priced version you could probably cover most of your bases. Priced at 3000 and 7000 or something around there.

The issue of course is whether they have the research money to build and maintain two different cameras, and whether one will sell so much better than the other that having two different cameras makes no sense. Anyway, it's just a thought experiment.

 

[mike_j]

might appeal to 'American soccer mums..'

for the benefit of an English follower of football (as defined outside the US) or soccer to use the less popular old fashioned name, can you please explain what a 'soccer mum' is. I often see this term but it is quite meaningless to many of us.

 

[clintock]

A soccer mom is a North American woman who's daily routine consists of errands for her children, as well as friends of her children. Typically situated in sub-urban areas just outside of major cities, the soccer mom drives her 'minivan' (an estate car with no bonnet derived from a panel van, but with added seating and DVD players for every passenger), or minivan in disguise (the same as the 'minivan' but based on a pickup truck) to various soccer matches, the vehicle loaded with noisy children and their kit.
Competitiveness ensues, beyond the football matches, types of vehicle, who can scream loudest for their respective child etc. Oh and who has the best/most pictures of said children on the field. That's where the eye of the Leica marketeers may have been caught.
Any demographic member who would feel shame to not have DVD players in their vehicle would make a good customer for the latest super-zoom digicam, most probably.

 

[Harry Lime]

An M8-2 with:

- Frame lines as accurate as those in an M2 or M4. The current markings in the M8 are ridiculously far off. I do not expect the accuracy or an SLR, but we have gone from the framing being acceptably accurate, to being borderline unusable.

- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. This would solve the problem listed above. Leica already built a prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

- True weather sealing on the M8 body and lenses that can be upgraded to have a gasket on their mount.

Firmware update that allows the M8 to write uncompressed 16bit files. I don't care that it will slow the camera down or that the files will be 20MB.

- A line of 'for digital' lenses for the M8 with integrated IR coatings.

- M9 with high-dynamic range sensor offering 12-14 stops of exposure at 10 or 12 MP and 16bit A/D converters. Maybe Fuji can make a SuperCCD for Leica.

- Dump 4/3rds and go for APS (x1.5) at a minimum.

- Lower the cost of all Leica gear. In the past I've bought several bodies and lenses new, but with the recent price increases even a die hard like me has thrown in the towel.

- R10 with a full frame 16MP chip. 16bit color, maybe high dynamic range like a Fuji SuperCCD. WEATHER SEALING! I have no desire to take a $8000 dollar unsealed digital camera out in the rain or to a humid climate.

- A Chinese built CL. 8-10MP, 14bit A/D, SD card. RF with accurate framelines.
Aperture priority mode, manual 'film' advance. $1599

Thanks!

HL

 

[erikhaugsby]

- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. ... Leica already built a prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

I saw the auction for said camera, based on an M3 if I remember correctly, but there is a reason it didn't go beyond the prototype phase: it is too bloody expensive to make on a large scale. That and adding all the little bits and pieces necessary to make it work leaves lots of room for failure.

- A line of 'for digital' lenses for the M8 with integrated IR coatings.

The only issue here is if they go like Canon and make their digital-only lenses useable only on the current sub-frame sensor so that they are unable to be used on full-frame or film cameras. This would force them to keep a sub-frame sensor, or make users buy new lenses with each new sensor size "upgrade."

- M9 with high-dynamic range sensor offering 12-14 stops of exposure

Is this even possible? I quite honestly don't know.

- Dump 4/3rds and go for APS (x1.5) at a minimum.

The M8 has a 1.3x sensor, not APS and certainly not 4/3rds.

- Lower the cost of all Leica gear. In the past I've bought several bodies and lenses new, but with the recent price increases even a die hard like me has thrown in the towel.

And lower costs inherently leads to fewer innovations, fewer features, and very possibly lower quality and quality control. I buy Leica because I know that it is reliable; poor quality would give me no reason to stay with the brand.

- A Chinese built CL. 8-10MP, 14bit A/D, SD card. RF with accurate framelines.
Aperture priority mode, manual 'film' advance. $1599

Nice.

 

[Al Patterson]

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

As someone who has participated in these sort of threads over at dpreview, my guess is this is a CL owner's fantasy.

But then again , I'd buy a digital CL or CLE if they made one at an affordable price.

 

[ywenz]

Wow, really?

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea?

What's wrong with batteries? (Oh wait, I forgot - M8 batteries are screwy) Anyways.. How often do people take off with their digital Ms to the middle of no where to ever require the crank? Not too often.

 

[Terao]

I meet occasionally with Pansonic's R&D DSC manager; sessions are devoted to imporoved ergonomics and looking at ways to bring on board professional (and enthusiast) desired features, such as an accessory shoe (aka Richoh) and better hand(ling) , but that's not happening at the moment for production and assembly reasons. I'd love to see a combination of some of the LX2 features and the GX100, so maybe some more work in this direction will bring forth .....who knows?

The biggest issue I have with Panasonic cameras is the noise reduction/image processing. I much prefer Ricoh's approach of not hiding the noise and letting me sort it (if needed) in post. Its a shame, I love their ergonomics and innovative approach to body design in general

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Leica probably does not have name recognition with most "Soccer Mom's" as Nikon or Canon. I see a lot of "Mom's" using DSLR's to take pictures at the Playground and Soccer field. These are the D50 class camera, and Canon equivalent. You are looking at an $800 setup. The same mom's use their point and shoot Digital cameras for Girl Scout activities and others events when they do not want to lug the "big camera" around. A couple of them give me some good-natured ribbing about me and my film cameras. Once I had an N8008s loaded with film and answered back "Oh Yeah! This camera USED to BE Digital!"

> Originally Posted by Harry Lime
>- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. ... Leica already built a
> prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

My Konica S2 and Polaroid 180 have this feature. It would be much more complex for finders with multiple framelines. I do not see a "Great" advantage in the feature over standard parallax correction.

 

[Harry Lime]

I saw the auction for said camera, based on an M3 if I remember correctly, but there is a reason it didn't go beyond the prototype phase: it is too bloody expensive to make on a large scale. That and adding all the little bits and pieces necessary to make it work leaves lots of room for failure.

i'm pretty sure that Fujifilm did it in their 6x7 and 6x9 cameras. CNC machining really cuts costs these days. They could even do it electronically with the M8.
But regardless they have to do something. The framing accuracy on the M8 is atrocious, even for a rangefinder camera.

The only issue here is if they go like Canon and make their digital-only lenses useable only on the current sub-frame sensor so that they are unable to be used on full-frame or film cameras. This would force them to keep a sub-frame sensor, or make users buy new lenses with each new sensor size "upgrade."

I would settle for integrated IR coatings and full frame coverage. That would make the lenses future proof. My big question is if the IR filter can be integrated as a coating and how this would affect shooting on film.

Is this even possible? I quite honestly don't know.

Some day. Fuji is getting 10 stops of useable range out of the S5 PRO. That's two stops more than pretty much any other DSLR out there. If they could make a sensor that captured 12-14 stops even I would think about going digital. Until then I'm sticking with Tri-X and color negative. ;-)


>The M8 has a 1.3x sensor, not APS and certainly not 4/3rds.

Yes, I know.

I was talking about Leicas D-LUX cameras that are based on Panasonic
units. 4/3rds is a technological dead end. Due to the small footprint of the sensor the individual receptor size is very small. This makes it very difficult or impossible to produce a sensor that had good high iso performance and large dynamic range. Leica needs to go at least APS on their low end, otherwise every entry level Canon or Nikons will kick their can.

>And lower costs inherently leads to fewer innovations, fewer features, and very >possibly lower quality and quality control. I buy Leica because I know that it is >reliable; poor quality would give me no reason to stay with the brand.

Actually it doesn't. High sales fuel greater demand for next generation products and increased revenue can be pumped into the R&D of new products. In the past Leica has always been short on cash to develop new products, because their sales are so low. Larger sales would also allow them to lower their prices. Leica will never be a huge volume seller, at least not the rangefinder cameras, but it would be nice if they could get back to sales figures they had back in the 1950 and 60's.

HL

 

[Slipkid]

A different sensor, perhaps?

A different sensor, perhaps?

About three years ago, I purchased a Sigma SD10 digital SLR kit. I was impressed by the Foveon technology used for the sensor...RGB at over 3 MP each...marketed as a 10 plus MP camera. At that time, only the Pro versions from Nikon and Canon could approach that kind of pixel density. I enjoyed the quality of the pictures. Much higher than my P&S digicams. I also have a Nikon D70s, and the Sigma more than holds it's own...

Of course, after the D70s, the film bug bit me again and I have some very nice Leica rangefinders and glass to go with them...So, I am not shooting as much digital as I was...

Now, I have a Lumix with Leica glass...small, but with features that I can use to do more than just take snapshots...I would love to see an improved M8 M-style digital product...Perhaps using a Foveon sensor would debug the IR issue? Had the engineers even considered not using a CMOS-style sensor?

Cheers,
AJ

 

[IGMeanwell]

I would also be on board as looking for a cheaper D-CL

but hell it would be even better if they could get a nice compact fixed-focal length camera (ala the Yashica T4 or Fuji Natura S), with a 4/3rds sensor

mostly because that Venus III engine for the smaller sensors is some of the worst noise reduction I have ever seen barely usable at ISO400

 

[Tuolumne]

I would like a Leica version of something like the GRD.. but with even better handling.. I think this could sell very well.

And with a buffer so you can take more than one RAW photo at a time. The RAW speed is so sloooow (maybe 10 seconds) that you have to be very dedicated to this camera to use it.

/T

 

[ZeissFan]

Wow, really?

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea?

Interesting thought but not a good idea. While charged, everything would be fine. However, the true danger would occur when the charge ran down during a write cycle to the memory card. It most certainly would lead to memory card corruption, which sometimes is irreversible and cannot be corrected by formatting the card.

Hand cranks are great for flashlights and radios. Not so good for complex computerized devices (which digital cameras are).