sooner
Well-known
Hi Folks,
I am sort of disgusted with my attempts to get super sharp, non-grainy b&w images with 35mm, and I always prefer my MF shots in that regard, but I want more. Consequently, I think I'm ready to try large format. I would ideally like portability (Speed Graphic?), but I also need sufficient movements to ensure parallel lines and maximum depth of field. Will use it mostly for portraits but also some landscape. And I can't afford more than $500 or so. Am I restricted to a Speed Graphic or used Toyo rail system? Also, where best to buy the tubes for daylight processing? Thanks in advance.
I am sort of disgusted with my attempts to get super sharp, non-grainy b&w images with 35mm, and I always prefer my MF shots in that regard, but I want more. Consequently, I think I'm ready to try large format. I would ideally like portability (Speed Graphic?), but I also need sufficient movements to ensure parallel lines and maximum depth of field. Will use it mostly for portraits but also some landscape. And I can't afford more than $500 or so. Am I restricted to a Speed Graphic or used Toyo rail system? Also, where best to buy the tubes for daylight processing? Thanks in advance.
K
kjoebek
Guest
You could get a Polaroid Pathfinder 110 or 120 and make you self a very handy 4"x5" rangfinder camera like the Razzledog's Camera or the The Littman 45 Single. ( see my blog: http://foto.spiritandmind.dk/#home )
Fotch
Man with a RF Camera
For the budget you have, hard to get both portability & lots of movement. That said, the Speed or Crown Graphic would probably do all you need. And because of the range finder, sport finder, roll film backs, could shoot like a 35mm.
A Calumet View would be affordable but not suited for backpacking, have have all the movements.
For $500 you could probably buy both.
Good luck.
A Calumet View would be affordable but not suited for backpacking, have have all the movements.
For $500 you could probably buy both.
Good luck.
qruyk12
Established
get a toho fc45x when/if they pop up. Great little camera with lots of movements and you can carry a whole system in a tiny bag. Another cheaper option would be the Gowland Pocket series of 4x5 cameras.
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
I'm very happy with Crown Graphic. I have a Speed Graphic too, but the Crown is lighter.
It has some movements, but being a Press Camera, not as many as a Field Camera. Coming from 35mm, however, having any movements at all is a big change.
The advantage of a Press Camera over a Field Camera or Rail system is that you can use it hand-held.
If you must have movements and can deal with being limited to ground-glass focusing, a used Shen-Hao HZX 4x5-IIA might be worth looking at without getting too expensive.
A used Graphic will probably come with a lens, usually a Graphlex Optar 135, Kodak Ektar 127, or maybe a Schneider Xenar 135. Any of these are okay to start if the shutters are still good. However, a 135 or 150 Nikon from KEH would be better and not too expensive.
For developing 4x5, I use an HP-Combi daylight tank with success.
It has some movements, but being a Press Camera, not as many as a Field Camera. Coming from 35mm, however, having any movements at all is a big change.
The advantage of a Press Camera over a Field Camera or Rail system is that you can use it hand-held.
If you must have movements and can deal with being limited to ground-glass focusing, a used Shen-Hao HZX 4x5-IIA might be worth looking at without getting too expensive.
A used Graphic will probably come with a lens, usually a Graphlex Optar 135, Kodak Ektar 127, or maybe a Schneider Xenar 135. Any of these are okay to start if the shutters are still good. However, a 135 or 150 Nikon from KEH would be better and not too expensive.
For developing 4x5, I use an HP-Combi daylight tank with success.
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enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
it isn't as hard as you might think. i have tried everything and the best by far is the old arca-swiss model c. it has both base and axis tilts, is a full-on full-movements view camera, and is very light and compact. not to mention the impeccable swiss build quality! any lens will serve you fine.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
The movements on a Graphic press camera are so limited that I think you'd just get frustrated. A monorail camera isn't really all that bulky in a back pack. With the bellows collapsed there's plenty of room to pack stuff around the camera. One good camera is the Graphinc View II with center tilt. The Graphic View I with base tilts is more trouble to work with. They're a lot better built than the Calumet.
sienarot
Well-known
An alternative to the Speed/Crown Graphic press cameras is the Busch Pressman D. It's made of metal and has a rotating back, something that didn't show up in the Graphics until later on. You can usually score these for about $200-250 with a lens.
Hey, whatta ya know? I'm selling mine
</shameless plug>
Hey, whatta ya know? I'm selling mine
</shameless plug>
dazedgonebye
Veteran
I bought a crown graphic then immediately bought a super graphic.
I was frustrated by the lack of movements with the crown, even while trying to learn. The rotating back of the super was also a big plus.
My kit (which I've only started using).
Super Graphic (with non-working rangefinder and non-working electronic shutter actuator) $160
Super Angulon 90mm f8, $200
Fuji 250mm f6.3, $240
Graflex Optar 135mm f4.7, $55
That's cheap for the super graphic because of the non-functioning bits I didn't care about. Also, a bargain on the Super Angulon I think.
It pays to hide and wait for good deals.
I was frustrated by the lack of movements with the crown, even while trying to learn. The rotating back of the super was also a big plus.
My kit (which I've only started using).
Super Graphic (with non-working rangefinder and non-working electronic shutter actuator) $160
Super Angulon 90mm f8, $200
Fuji 250mm f6.3, $240
Graflex Optar 135mm f4.7, $55
That's cheap for the super graphic because of the non-functioning bits I didn't care about. Also, a bargain on the Super Angulon I think.
It pays to hide and wait for good deals.
jke
Well-known
One thing about LF cameras - the body is about 1/3 of the camera. The rest is the lens. The body is a stable shell that allows you to set up the shot & have everything stay put while you shove a film holder into the back. Viewfinders, cams, focal plane shutters aren't necessary. Just need a nice ground glass and light-tight bellows.
The absence of a Graflok back will keep the price down. That's often why Busch Pressmen are cheaper than Graphics. Not a big omission for shooting 4x5.
If you are going to have one lens, I'd shop for a nice 150mm lens in a solid shutter. Then spend the money you have left on the rest of it.
The most cumbersome thing about LF is not the camera, but the fact that you have to schlep a tripod everywhere. And that tripod has to be stable so you don't get vibration blur on your negatives.
The absence of a Graflok back will keep the price down. That's often why Busch Pressmen are cheaper than Graphics. Not a big omission for shooting 4x5.
If you are going to have one lens, I'd shop for a nice 150mm lens in a solid shutter. Then spend the money you have left on the rest of it.
The most cumbersome thing about LF is not the camera, but the fact that you have to schlep a tripod everywhere. And that tripod has to be stable so you don't get vibration blur on your negatives.
newspaperguy
Well-known
Your toughest learning curve may be handling 4X5 cut film.
A Century Graphic, B&J or Busch press type camera would be
a great transition camera, a small initial investment, and probably
offer more movement you you could initially use. Just my .02
A Century Graphic, B&J or Busch press type camera would be
a great transition camera, a small initial investment, and probably
offer more movement you you could initially use. Just my .02
Roger Hicks
Veteran
MPP Mk. VII -- and silly-cheap at the moment, thanks to the weak pound.
Visit: www.mppusers.freeuk.com
Tashi Delek,
R.
Visit: www.mppusers.freeuk.com
Tashi Delek,
R.
Zonan
Well-known
Graphic has capability for much of what you want...
Graphic has capability for much of what you want...
I took a one day class in January from Michael Lundgren, who teaches at Arizona State and shoots professionally- his new book Transfigurations is wonderful (see link at his website: http://www.michaeldlundgren.com ).
He shoots an old 4x5 graphic he got years ago from a friend in payment of a debt- says he doesn't have to worry if something happens to it. I was surprised it could do what he does with it, as I do like my Wista SP (which is outside your $ range).
Rick
Graphic has capability for much of what you want...
I took a one day class in January from Michael Lundgren, who teaches at Arizona State and shoots professionally- his new book Transfigurations is wonderful (see link at his website: http://www.michaeldlundgren.com ).
He shoots an old 4x5 graphic he got years ago from a friend in payment of a debt- says he doesn't have to worry if something happens to it. I was surprised it could do what he does with it, as I do like my Wista SP (which is outside your $ range).
Rick
Michiel Fokkema
Michiel Fokkema
i have a super graphic.
Cheap, light,sturdy and enough movements for me.
Read this: http://www.cameraquest.com/techgrap.htm
Cheers,
Michiel Fokkema
Cheap, light,sturdy and enough movements for me.
Read this: http://www.cameraquest.com/techgrap.htm
Cheers,
Michiel Fokkema
chachi
Member
that what i love about my graphic; the body is basically just a big case for the lens. i have good confidence that i could drop this thing off a cliff (closed) and at least the lens would survive. i can't think of any other camera that i can say that about.
and that's why i started shooting it handheld. press photographers did it for fifty years and once you get over the weight it's easy. i'm not even sure my nikon f2 isn't heavier, honestly...
i have to say, i don't ever long for more movements. maybe it's my subject matter, but i never feel limited not having them.
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Frank Petronio
Well-known
The best bang for the buck is a later model late-1960s-era Crown Graphic with the top rangefinder and either the Kodak Ektar in a Supermatic shutter or a Schneider Xenar in Synchro-Compur. Look for a package deal with some 4x5 holders; figure on $250 if you buy from a "I don't know anything" seller on eBay to $500 for one from a very reliable eBay seller. Spend the rest on a Harrison Pup Tent changing tent and a lot of film.
For landscape all you really need is a little rise and front base tilt, which the Crown can do (drop the bed for front tilt.)
If you really think you need a lot of movements, then get an inexpensive monorail. A 4x5 Calumet/Orbit/Kodak "coat hanger" camera is only $100. Sinar Fs go for only $300 these days. It probably makes sense to have both a Crown and a monorail at those prices.
For landscape all you really need is a little rise and front base tilt, which the Crown can do (drop the bed for front tilt.)
If you really think you need a lot of movements, then get an inexpensive monorail. A 4x5 Calumet/Orbit/Kodak "coat hanger" camera is only $100. Sinar Fs go for only $300 these days. It probably makes sense to have both a Crown and a monorail at those prices.
venchka
Veteran
Welcome to the Club.
Find the Large Format Photography Forum. GOOGLE knows where it is. Join. Do your research there. Ask questions. Find the Large Format Photogrpaphy pages. More research. More reading.
In 30 days you will have a better idea of what you want.
In 30 days you can use the For Sale/Want To Buy section at the Forum. Anything & everything worth having comes up for sale there. You won't have to wait long.
Daylight tanks: I am sold on the Jobo 2551/2553 tank, 2509 reels and either a Beseler or Uniroller motor base. I have less than $50 invested and I have enough reels for 35mm, 120/220 and 4x5.
Don't be afraid of properly stored expired B&W cheap film. It works fine.
Enjoy!
Find the Large Format Photography Forum. GOOGLE knows where it is. Join. Do your research there. Ask questions. Find the Large Format Photogrpaphy pages. More research. More reading.
In 30 days you will have a better idea of what you want.
In 30 days you can use the For Sale/Want To Buy section at the Forum. Anything & everything worth having comes up for sale there. You won't have to wait long.
Daylight tanks: I am sold on the Jobo 2551/2553 tank, 2509 reels and either a Beseler or Uniroller motor base. I have less than $50 invested and I have enough reels for 35mm, 120/220 and 4x5.
Don't be afraid of properly stored expired B&W cheap film. It works fine.
Enjoy!
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Most 4x5 Press cameras will come with a 135mm or even a 127mm lens, about the same coverage as a 35mm or 30mm lens on your 35mm camera. The 127mm was actually designed for 3.35x4.25 film, not 4x5, and the 4 element Ektars, Raptars, Xenars, etc. barely cover 4x5. Forget about swinging and tilting with them until you get up to a focal length of about 160mm or better. For moderate wide angle at reasonable prices look for a 100mm f/6.3 Kodak Wide Field Etar, 90mm f/6.8 Wollensak Wide Angle Raptar or a 90mm f/6.8 Schneider Angulon. Going in the other direction look for a 203mm f/7.7 Kodak Ektar, which was likely the sharpest lens Kodak ever made and it will easily cover 5x7 film, even with some camera adjustments.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
FWIW Al is right on, the older Kodak Ektars were and are the Leica quality lenses of their era and they are just as sharp (or better) than modern name-brand lenses. They are single-coated, which can be an advantage sometimes. They are also compact and come in good shutters.
The only glitch is they lack modern filter threads and flash syncs contacts. And you may have to invest $75 in a CLA if yours is old and gummy after 50 years. That 100 WF Ektar is a great optic. The 203 Ektar is a stop slow for me but still better than most modern 210s.
The only glitch is they lack modern filter threads and flash syncs contacts. And you may have to invest $75 in a CLA if yours is old and gummy after 50 years. That 100 WF Ektar is a great optic. The 203 Ektar is a stop slow for me but still better than most modern 210s.
sooner
Well-known
Wow, thanks for all the posts. I've got my research cut out for me tonight, with all the great suggestions here, many of which I've never heard of. I'm especially interested in the different points of view on the need for or degree of tilt and shifts.