A 5 meg. M Leica

[POINT OF VIEW]

With Leica’s new prices it looks like they are pricing themselves out of the market.
My suggestion to Leica, which is not worth the time it takes me to type this, IS - With the new affordable M Summarit 35,50,75,90, line of lenses wouldn’t it be cool if they made a M digital body say, 5 mega pixels camera in the $2000 price range. I believe that would bring a lot more rangefinder shooters into the digital fold. Bill
Gallery

 

[ywenz]

The high price of the M8 is not due to its megapixel count... a 5MP RF will not be cheaper to manufacture and will have less desire in the market.

 

[ferider]

The new lens line smells like they are planning a new
compact camera. Different min. focus, for instance.

The high price of the M8 is partially due to the sensor. Not because of
MPixel, but because of fab throughput (specialized sensor due to
thin IR layer -> few chips fabricated -> high costs).

So, if they manage to get a sensor that is used in much higher numbers by
another application (say a more standard APS sensor), they can reduce
the camera price. Like with the Summarits, they will have to reduce
the Leica margin, too, though.

My 2 cents,

Roland.

 

[Didier]

Not shure if they're planning that, Roland. They just try to fill the gap between the Summicron and Elmarit line. CV has shown that slower, but more compact and more affordable lenses have their market desire, too. Think Porsche Boxter to compete Mazda MX5. Alas, the Elmarits will likely fall out with that strategy.
Didier

 

[ferider]

Not shure if they're planning that, Roland. They just try to fill the gap between the Summicron and Elmarit line. CV has shown that slower, but more compact and more affordable lenses have their market desire, too. Think Porsche Boxter to compete Mazda MX5. Alas, the Elmarits will likely fall out with that strategy.
Didier

I'm just guessing, Didier, you might be right of course. Will be nice to get an E46 Elmarit when it gets cheaper

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[POINT OF VIEW]

So, are we saying . Epson can make a 6MP ( RD1 ) camera for 2 grand but Leica can’t?

 

[ferider]

So, are we saying . Epson can make a 6MP ( RD1 ) camera for 2 grand but Leica can’t?

They can if
1) the decrease the Leica margin
2) Like Epson (6 Megapixel Sony CCD sensor found also in the Nikon D-70) they use a non-specialized sensor.

Roland.

 

[Didier]

So, are we saying . Epson can make a 6MP ( RD1 ) camera for 2 grand but Leica can’t?

Epson lost a lot of money with that digital rangefinder experiment. And the reliability of the R-D1 is far below Leica standards, I can tell!
Didier

 

[jaapv]

With Leica’s new prices it looks like they are pricing themselves out of the market.

Well - if the market is a one-horse race, there is not much danger of that. Comparing image quality, there are a number of cameras similarly or higher priced in the same quality bracket. So for the M8 any price up to 8000$ could be contemplated imo, the marketing strategists can be trusted to work out the best profit/turnover ratio one might hope.
Lenses, however, is another story, with the CV and Zeiss offerings. - and there we see designs of a more moderate price appearing.

 

[rxmd]

I could imagine a medium-end digital rangefinder from Leica happening, if they use an off-the-shelf sensor; they'd have to take care of not undercutting their own M8 sales, though. A "CL effect" is the last thing Leica needs at the moment.

 

[pvdhaar]

I could imagine a medium-end digital rangefinder from Leica happening, if they use an off-the-shelf sensor; they'd have to take care of not undercutting their own M8 sales, though. A "CL effect" is the last thing Leica needs at the moment.

After the initial uptake by early adopters, the volume of M8 sales will level off, if not taper out. That's the point where a more friendly priced CL-D will open a segment of the market that the M8 can't..

 

[Gid]

Epson lost a lot of money with that digital rangefinder experiment. And the reliability of the R-D1 is far below Leica standards, I can tell!
Didier

Where are details of Epson's losses available to view?

As far as quality is concerned my RD1 has fared very well - apart from adjusting the RF/VF a couple of times it has been flawless in over two and a half years of use. On the other hand, my first two M8s were lemons. In theory, one might expect the M8 to be of a higher quality, but in practice this hasn't necessarily been the case. The real reason I have an M8 is because it is more likely to be supported if anything goes wrong.

As to the OP, if Leica want to open up a new market, then, I believe they will have to be more radical than they have been to date. Just dumbing down the M8 isn't going to work - the RF/manual focus/prime lens market is niche. I think that they have two areas where they could generate some interest. Firstly, a fixed lens (35 F2) RF/P&S with an APS sized sensor with AF, optical VF and reasonable manual control (as per the mythical Sigma DP1) and secondly an update to the Digilux 2 - high quality fixed fast zoom, APS sensor, optical VF, AF, but smaller form factor. Both of these would appeal to different markets to the M8 users and hopefully they could be introduced at a sensible price point albeit still marketed as a high end item.

 

[jack palmer]

With Leica’s new prices it looks like they are pricing themselves out of the market.
My suggestion to Leica, which is not worth the time it takes me to type this, IS - With the new affordable M Summarit 35,50,75,90, line of lenses wouldn’t it be cool if they made a M digital body say, 5 mega pixels camera in the $2000 price range. I believe that would bring a lot more rangefinder shooters into the digital fold. Bill
Gallery

I think " more afforable". Afforable is a realitive term and Leica lense aren't "afforable "to the vast majority of the photography market. I don't care who made the body but if someone could turn one out for half the cost or less of the M8 it would kill M8 sales. With all the other digital offerings on the market, you have to really want the rangefidrer /digital experience to put up $5,000.00 +. Thats a lot of film. ...........A lot of film.

 

[HAnkg]

Affordable

Affordable

With the tiny numbers Leica sells and the additional difficulties of digital M mount cameras (very tight lens to sensor distance) and the high cost of the complex optical M finder (the finder alone probably costs more then a Canon Digital Rebel), it would take more then using an APS sensor from some mass produced camera to get the cost down to what most consider reasonable.

When you can only expect selling maybe 15,000 units rather then 100's of 1000's there just is not enough volume to cover development and manufacturing costs in the lower end. Maybe if Cosina supplied the bodies based on the Bessa. But I can't see Leica going that route. A 5 or 6 MP camera at $3,000. would get laughed out of the market. The 'affordable" Summarits cost as much or more then every other manufacturers top of the line fast primes (like any marks 50/1.4 or the excellent Canon 35/1.4 L or 135/2 L).

It might be a while before we see lower cost digital M's -especially as long as leica has no competition. The first lower cost digital M might be used M8's when the M9 comes out.

 

[Ben Z]

With Leica’s new prices it looks like they are pricing themselves out of the market.

It looks to me like they've priced themselves into the market they were aiming at. And that market is a comfy one because 3-digit price increases don't deter sales much.

With the new affordable M Summarit 35,50,75,90, line of lenses wouldn’t it be cool if they made a M digital body say, 5 mega pixels camera in the $2000 price range.

Not that they wouldn't find a market willing to stand up and swear that it "beats" the image quality of 10MP DSLR's but if they're going to do it they better do it quick because in another 12-18 mo's I think it won't be unusual to find a supply of slightly-used M8's in the $2500-3000 range. I'd much rather see Leica put their R&D funds into forging ahead with an even more impressive followup to the M8. And remember, the Summarits are probably going to have 90% the resolution of the standard lenses costing 2x as much, not 50%.

 

[ferider]

How about this:

they'll build a compact, cheaper d Leica for around US 1500.
Maybe in Asia Same sensor as the M8.
They'll create internal competition against the M8 which stops selling
since everybody will buy the new compact body.

Then they'll get their act together and build a full frame M9, same size,
magnification, etc., as, say the M4-2.

History is the best way to predict the future

Roland.

 

[Ben Z]

History is the best way to predict the future

Roland.

Let's hope Leica management's version of that old saw reads "Those who refuse to acknowledge history are doomed to repeat it"

 

[eon]

So, are we saying . Epson can make a 6MP ( RD1 ) camera for 2 grand but Leica can’t?

Epson didn't!
When the R-D1 was introduced it had the same price level as the M8 has today.
Later the price of R-D1 fell to a little more than half that.

 

[Gid]

Epson didn't!
When the R-D1 was introduced it had the same price level as the M8 has today.
Later the price of R-D1 fell to a little more than half that.

I beg to differ.

When the RD1 came out it was £1999 in the UK. It subsequently dropped to approx £1450. The M8 at launch was £2950 in the UK.

 

[kbg32]

When I hear about people wanting a M8, but buy a refurbished RD-1, staying away from the M8 due to problems, with all due respect, it makes my skin crawl. How can anyone say that and jump on to the Epson wagon? Epson has had have had far more problems with the RD-1 then Leica has had with the M8. I bet there are more people on RFF who own a refurbished RD-1 over an original brand new one. If you recall, Espson is not a photography company. All the parts of the RD-1 are out-sourced and assembled by Epson technicians.

The chip in the M8 is from Kodak, who makes a damn fine product, but can never seem to make it function correctly. The internal algorithym programs for their chips have always been problematic as I've read.