A Conundrum

[thanatos]

I hadn't really thought of this before. I am a fairly strict vegetarian. Dairy and eggs I eat but anything else animal derived I don't. And that includes gelatin.

In my working day, I use or have used plenty of gelatin-based and animal-derived products to diagnose and treat human disease. But I can fairly easily rationalise that stuff - for the greater good and all that.

But can I rationalise using gelatin-based film now that digital is available and quaility acceptable?

 

[dadsm3]

Gelatin in Jello is animal-derived?

 

[thanatos]

Yup. And the gelatin in low-fat yoghurts/ice cream/other dairy desserts. And the gelatin in some hard candy/sweets. And, unfortunately, the gelatin in film.

 

[Bryce]

Cow toenails, right? If you want to completely avoid meat products, I guess film should fall on the list. I think in order to take the ideal to that level as a consumer life would become very difficult... I wonder what's in inkjet paper and ink?

 

[ferider]

Cow toenails, right? If you want to completely avoid meat products, I guess film should fall on the list. I think in order to take the ideal to that level as a consumer life would become very difficult... I wonder what's in inkjet paper and ink?

More than cow nails, I believe. Bones as well.

At the high point of mad-cow disease in Switzerland, there were studies to investigate if CFJ infections could be caused by Gelatine from the wrong animals.

Roland.

 

[thanatos]

Cow toenails, right? If you want to completely avoid meat products, I guess film should fall on the list. I think in order to take the ideal to that level as a consumer life would become very difficult... I wonder what's in inkjet paper and ink?

I agree and try to be as animal-friendly as possible where there are alternatives and recognise that I have to compromise where there are no reasonable alternatives. And digital is a reasonable alternative, right?

 

[John Camp]

Gelatin in Jello is animal-derived?

Yup.

Film, though, is polyester; the silver halide is bound to the polyester with gelatin, but is washed away in processing.

Couldn't you still be a vegetarian if you shoot, but don't eat, the film? (It tastes really bad, anyway.) 😀

JC

 

[JohnL]

Not only cows, but horses too, and probably several others.

 

[ferider]

Thanatos, don't mean to make it more difficult, I do respect your Conundrum.

But there is also a family of greases used for mechanics (in your car for example) that are based on similar origins. Probably lots of animal traces in cosmetics, too, like lipsticks, etc.

Roland.

 

[Bryce]

Is digital really animal product free? I don't know one way or another, just a question. I wonder what's on inkjet paper that swells slightly when ink is applied, then swells back down as it dries. Maybe a good one for Ilford's tech support?

 

[Kyle]

Seeing as how you're a vegetarian, and not a vegan, I don't see the issue. You've already made a compromise because you'll eat dairy and eggs, both of which are arguably just as cruel as eating meat itself (unless you're buying from free-range farms and what not, but thats a different issue). Anyways, like I said, you've already made compromises, I don't see why you couldn't live with this one. Now, if you were a vegan I would see a bigger dilemma.

Please don't take that as any sort of judgement. I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, that is just my viewpoint on this (I've basically decided that if I were to consider being a vegetarian I may as well just go all or nothing and be a vegan).

 

[Al Patterson]

Yes. Avoid all film products and send your rangefinders to me...

Just kidding. Although I personally won't be a vegetarian until beef is declared a vegatable. Too each his own.

 

[PlantedTao]

Thanks to meat eaters like myself...you should not have a problem. It is just a by product of the industry that goes to waste if not for processes like gelatin.
I appreciate that you are a vegatarian and avoiding meat, but I think making a stand on film seems silly since humans are omnivores and we will always have these by-products.

I'm not judging, I think it is great not to eat meat...I go for days without touching the stuff.

 

[thanatos]

Interesting comments. I have to say that I don't think I'm being 'silly', I'm just giving it some thought. And obviously I've raised some issues (e.g. gelatin) that at least some of you are unaware of.

The stuff about grease that mechanics use is a fair one. and by extension, you have to think that all my clothes are probably dyed either with animal-derived products or else products that have been tested on animals. But again, what is a reasonable alternative?

The slaughterhouse by-product argument is one I use when I wear my leather shoes but then the 'reasonable alternative' argument applies - wearing plastic shoes makes my feet stink and gives me athlete's foot, so I haven't got a reasonable alternative. And Roland, I don't wear lipstick. Actually, all my toiletries are as animal-friendly as they can be.

And funnily enough, kyle, the eggs and dairy I buy are organic/free-range - dairy farming is arguably more cruel than meat farming. But I know where you're coming from and your point is valid.

And I have been (and would like to be) a vegan but my skin falls off (seriously) so we're back to being reasonable again.

Perhaps I should shoot projects on animal cruelty to salve my guilty conscience 😉

 

[telenous]

I appreciate the dilema, although not a vegetarian myself. Your 'reasonable alternative' argument works like Occam's razor, cutting off alternatives that are not absolutely necessary as it were. Such as it is, it will always be possible to have different standpoints on what is deemed necessary and what not.

On the dairy product issue, there's a further complication. To have dairy products you need animals giving birth. If they do give birth, you end up with more cattle, that ultimately is reared for the demands of the meat market. If I am right on this, and I think I am, then dairy gets you involved in a similar (indirect) way that gelatin does. Your 'reasonable alternative' argument seems though to let dairies pass the test while gelatin fails. But it should be obvious that the 'reasonable alternative' threshold is somewhat arbitrary. If you move the goal post a bit then dairy is out and gelatin in.

But the key point may be that gelatin does not involve any extra cruelty on animals. That is, if there weren't any meat-eaters, the market for animal by-products would be much smaller too. (Who would ask for animals to be culled in order to get film - Don't answer that please). You can use film because people already eat meat. If they didn't, you couldn't.

 

[thanatos]

Who would ask for animals to be culled in order to get film - Don't answer that please

I will answer - I can think of at least 20 people on this forum who would 🙂

Your points are of course completely correct telenous, but most, if not all of us have some degree of internal inconsistency on virtually all matters. If it were otherwise, life would be considerably easier though infinitely more boring.

 

[telenous]

Apologies if this sounded as a test of consistency - I didn't mean it as such. I was intrigued by your 'reasonable alternative' axiom and it made me stop and think about such matters. Your stance is admirably principled and the conundrum is real; it's just that I think that one should swing in favour of film (and gelatin use) in this case (the main argument for it being the 'no extra cruelty' and not the 'inconsistency' one).

Best,

 

[Jocko]

I remember this issue came to the fore in the pre-digital 80s - perhaps the golden age of militant vegetarianism 🙂 It was the subject of a similar debate in Amateur Photographer, where a vegan spokesperson declared that Polaroids were the only permissable form of photography. Polaroid basked in the glow and responded by announcing the imminant introduction of a range of "ethical" 35mm films.

I shall buy some when I next drive into town in my hover-car 🙂


Cheers, Ian

 

[Pherdinand]

Well... Oil was once animal. I mean mineral oil.
Gasoline is animal related thus.
Go use your bicycle instyead 🙂

 

[Pherdinand]

There's another thing to this,by the way.
Animals are not butchered to make film out of their toenails. ANimals are butchered for lotsa other reasons. The fact that they make film out of their toenails, it just means, they are at least well used, not only the meat is processed.
That's good thing, right?😀