A Few Questions

[Gossling]

Hello all,

I am in need of some clarification regarding RF's before I pull the trigger on a Kiev 4 and Jupiter-8M or Helios-103 (which would you recommend, by the way?), and I figure there is no better place to ask than this (fantastic) forum. When using an accessory finder, such as the Russian turret-finder, for lenses other than the standard 50mm, you must first focus the image in the built-in rangefinder on the camera body and then frame the shot in the external viewfinder, correct? So it's basically like having separated RF/VF like the olden days? How quickly are experienced photographers able to complete this process? It seems like a pain that would take enough time to lose some great shots. I hope this is not the case.

How do you focus on an object that is not in the center of the frame with a RF camera? And what if the center of the frame has multiple objects that are significantly variable in distance from the lens? Will some objects be in focus while others remain out of focus?

Thanks!

 

[Chris101]

The easiest way is to use a small f-stop, fast film and zone-focus, letting the DOF take up the slack. I do that when I'm shooting fast even though my range/viewfinder is all in one.

 

[Keith]

If you really are hell bent on using an accessory finder on a camera like an old Kiev but do want precise focus on your subject, you are going to miss a lot of shots unless you just zone focus as Chris said.

Personally I would never go this route ... a bit like trying to run with leg chains IMO! 🙂

 

[mark-b]

to answer your question about the Helios 103 and the J8, i'd recommend the J8. a minor quirk with the Kiev 4 is that the view through the viewfinder will tend to cut off the bottom; at least with my camera.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It depends on how long you have to get the shot. If it's a still life, you have time to focus, set the distance into the separate finder, then shoot. If the subject is moving, stop down the lens, focus in the vicinity, and use the separate finder. The Kiev and Contax II that it is derived from were used for a lot of "action Shots". There are cameras that are much better- combined VF/RF and multiple framelines really speed things up.

 

[payasam]

A separate finder is a bit slow, and parallax correction makes it slower still, but we should never forget the great deal of excellent work done with this set-up. I use a FED-2 with a turret finder and do not find it daunting.

 

[Gossling]

Thanks for all the feedback.

If you really are hell bent on using an accessory finder on a camera like an old Kiev but do want precise focus on your subject, you are going to miss a lot of shots unless you just zone focus as Chris said.

Personally I would never go this route ... a bit like trying to run with leg chains IMO! 🙂

I thought that an accessory finder was the only way to use a non-standard lens on any rangefinder. Because without one, I would have only a very vague idea of what the longer or shorter lens actually sees. How would you recommend using a Jupiter-9 85mm lens on a Kiev 4? I definitely want to do portraits with whatever camera I decide on, and if this is terribly impractical with a Kiev 4 or similar inexpensive rangefinder, maybe I should consider SLRs?

The easiest way is to use a small f-stop, fast film and zone-focus, letting the DOF take up the slack. I do that when I'm shooting fast even though my range/viewfinder is all in one.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by letting the DOF "take up the slack." Do you mean allowing the DOF to determine what is in focus and what is not? Do you have any sample pictures available that were created with this method, just so I get an idea of what the result will be?

Thanks again!

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Gossling,

A number of rangefinders use a wide angle finder that projects smaller framelines for longer focal length lenses. My Leica M4 is an example: Its viewfinder shows a bit more than a 35mm lens. With a 35 attached, frames that nearly fill the finder show up. you compose within them. With a 50 mounted, the frames are smaller, so there's a lot outside the picture area you can see, since the finder always shows that wider than 35mm view. With a 90 or 135mm lens you get tiny frames! Some Leicas have a higher magnification finder that makes the 50, 90, and 135 frames bigger and easier to use, at the loss of wideangle useability.

Leica M3: 50, 90, 135 frames
Leica M2, M4, M4-2, M5: 35, 50, 90, 135 (M2 doesnt have 135mm)
Leica M4-P, M6, M7, MP: 28, 35, 50,75,90,135mm frames

The M6, M7, and MP were made with other finder magnifications anf framelines as an option so you may see those as well.

Voigtlander Bessa-R, R2, R3, R4 have frames for different focal lengths too"
R, R2, R2A, R2M: 35, 50, 75, 90mm
R3M, R3A: 40, 50, 75, 90mm
R4A, R4M: 21, 25, 28, 35, 50mm

Canon's old Canon-7 rangefinder also has framelines for 35, 50, 80, 100, 135mm

So, there's lots of rangefinder cameras that do NOT need accessory finders for commonly used focal lengths. Some, like the Voigtlander Bessas and the Canon 7 are cheap, Leicas are expensive.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

What they mean by letting DOF take up slack is that if you use a small aperture (requires bright light and/or fast film), your focus can be a bit off and still produce a sharp photo.

 

[Chris101]

... I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by letting the DOF "take up the slack." Do you mean allowing the DOF to determine what is in focus and what is not? Do you have any sample pictures available that were created with this method, just so I get an idea of what the result will be?

Oh sure - here is a set that I shot last summer that way. Note the near misses.

 

[konicaman]

Hello all,

How do you focus on an object that is not in the center of the frame with a RF camera? And what if the center of the frame has multiple objects that are significantly variable in distance from the lens? Will some objects be in focus while others remain out of focus?

Hi Gossling and welcome to the forum!

Using a classic rangefinder camera you can only focus on whatever is in the middle of the frame, as this is where the little yellow patch, which is the rangefinder image, is situated. Focus on what you want to be the sharpest and then compose the picture.

If there are more subjects close to the middle of the frame, but at varous distances, you'll have to choose which one to focus on. This is the freedom of a manual rangefinder as opposed to a fully automatic auto focus camera, where you can never be sure what the camera has focused on.

When you have used a manual rangefinder for 5-10 films, focusing is going to be second nature and much faster than the auto focus of a cheap digital or analogue camera. So not to worry 🙂

Happy shooting!

 

[gho]

I don't know about the Kiev-4 but I have a bit experience with the Bessa T and an external viewfinder. Focussing can be quite quick, as the image in the rangefinder is magnified and quite contrasty.

Composition with the external viewfinder can be a bit difficult, because you have to take into account the parralax error. Composition can be even more complicated, if you do not have a viewfinder that matches the lens. But I guess it is all a matter of practice.

I must admit, that I am enjoying this 2 step process quite a bit. If I see a scene or an upcoming event I keep my eye on the rangefinder, focus, and then simply switch to the viewfinder and press the button, if I have the impression that the moment is right. It is somehow more exciting than doing it with a combined viewfinder and rangefinder.

For me, most problems arise during the second step, if the subjet is very close and if I forget to take the parralax correction into account.

However, as others have noted, depending on the situation you could simply stop the lens down to get a greater depth of field. In this case, exact focussing is not so important and you can concentrate on composition.

If you have more time I find using an external viewfinder unproblematic. Enjoy!

But before you decide to buy anything I would look for the opportunity to test a rangefinder camera and to find out if you like it or not. A (D)SLR surely is also a way to go. With a speedy autofocus and the 'what you see is what you get' effect it is probably a better choice, if you want to take mainly pictures of sports or fast moving subjects.

What I like about viewfinders is that you can see what is outside the frame and anticipate action. Another point for viewfinders is that if you have one with 1:1 magnification, you can shoot with both eyes open and see the framelines floating in your view. Another point is that I do not feel as much disconnected from the scene compared to the 'tunnel vision' of an SRL. And lastly, rangefinder cameras are often much smaller and less obtrusive than a SLR. Both systems have their pros and cons, depending on the situation and of course you. So I would advice you to test the stuff out before you buy anything.

Another thing: If you are serious about it, try to get something decent and satisfying in the first place before sinking a ton of bucks into a lot of different equipment.