Jamie123
Veteran
We've been over this hundreds of times in various threads: The practice to add 3% to sales for payments using PayPal. The way it usually plays out is that one side says it's ok while the other says it's against PayPal's ToS and therefore anyone who does this is in breach of those terms.
I've always been on the side of those saying it's ok and have said over and over again that I find it quite questionable that PayPal could prohibit me to pass on the fees they charge. It just never fit into my understanding of the law.
So today out of boredom I thought I'll just have a quick look at PayPal ToS outside the US and sure enough I found my suspicions confirmed. Take a look at this line in the German PayPal ToS:
"Sofern Sie für die Nutzung von PayPal Ihren Kunden einen Aufschlag berechnen, dürfen Sie das nur im rechtlich zulässigen Rahmen und müssen Ihre Kunden darüber entsprechend selbst informieren, da dies anderenfalls (straf-) rechtliche Konsequenzen haben könnte."
Loosely translated this means "If you apply a surcharge for the usage of PayPal you may do so only to the degree permitted by the law and you are required to inform your customers about the surcharge, as otherwise this could carry legal consequences."
So here you have it. German PP ToS not only says that you are allowed to add a surcharge but also that you are required to inform your customer about that surcharge. So in fact "PP add x%" is the proper way to do it if you're a seller from Germany and I suspect the same goes for other non-US countries. I haven't found the right paragraph in the PP ToS for my country (Switzerland) but I suspect it's pretty much the same as here it is perfectly legal for stores to apply a surcharge on CC purchases.
I've always been on the side of those saying it's ok and have said over and over again that I find it quite questionable that PayPal could prohibit me to pass on the fees they charge. It just never fit into my understanding of the law.
So today out of boredom I thought I'll just have a quick look at PayPal ToS outside the US and sure enough I found my suspicions confirmed. Take a look at this line in the German PayPal ToS:
"Sofern Sie für die Nutzung von PayPal Ihren Kunden einen Aufschlag berechnen, dürfen Sie das nur im rechtlich zulässigen Rahmen und müssen Ihre Kunden darüber entsprechend selbst informieren, da dies anderenfalls (straf-) rechtliche Konsequenzen haben könnte."
Loosely translated this means "If you apply a surcharge for the usage of PayPal you may do so only to the degree permitted by the law and you are required to inform your customers about the surcharge, as otherwise this could carry legal consequences."
So here you have it. German PP ToS not only says that you are allowed to add a surcharge but also that you are required to inform your customer about that surcharge. So in fact "PP add x%" is the proper way to do it if you're a seller from Germany and I suspect the same goes for other non-US countries. I haven't found the right paragraph in the PP ToS for my country (Switzerland) but I suspect it's pretty much the same as here it is perfectly legal for stores to apply a surcharge on CC purchases.
Mister E
Well-known
I've never had any issues as a seller or buyer with working out paypal fees.
nolasafari
Member
Same here, I always felt it wasn't important enough to care about selling or buying, especially on a negotiated price. The entrepreneur who are running a side business selling cameras seem to be more concerned with trying to squeeze out a little more profit. In a free market it all seeks FMV, it is worth it to me to have someone else do the leg work to find the treasures.
The Paypal TOS seem to be country specific so I guess the country determines this rule.
Jim
Frontman
Well-known
Law varies from country to country, just because Paypal allows sellers to add surcharges in Germany doesn't mean that they must apply that policy to other counties. My American paypal account limits how much I can withdraw each month unless I pay extra for a premium account, whereas in Japan the law does not allow that practice, so I can withdraw as much as I like as often as I like. On the other hand, Japanese law does not allow me to use paypal's gift or living expenses option to send money, payments can be sent outside Japan only to pay for goods.
Personally I think buyers who charge extra for paypal transactions are doing a disseervice. The three percent may be hard for some sellers to swallow, but in exchange for this percentage they great increase the number of potential buyers, which means they can sell their items for more to begin with. I don't ding buyers who buy goods from me privately for the three percent, and I won't buy from sellers who charge me for the privilege of buying from them.
Personally I think buyers who charge extra for paypal transactions are doing a disseervice. The three percent may be hard for some sellers to swallow, but in exchange for this percentage they great increase the number of potential buyers, which means they can sell their items for more to begin with. I don't ding buyers who buy goods from me privately for the three percent, and I won't buy from sellers who charge me for the privilege of buying from them.
user237428934
User deletion pending
If you want to solve this then only sell for a fixed price and not with an auciton-price. With a fixed price you can calculate all fees in before and be happy.
Mister E
Well-known
Paypal is no more expensive for a vendor than accepting credit cards. I don't get what the big deal is? Some stores charge an extra 3% for using a credit card.
nolasafari
Member
This doesn't work as well as it once did, market conditions dictate the sales model. If the item dose not sell you have to keep lowering the price until it sells all the while similar items are being sold. With the auction model a potential prospect will start negations hoping to get a real bargain. The seller now has a good prospect and they can hopefully come to a meeting of the minds. On more than one item I have made an offer and been turned down to see the asking price fall below my offer several weeks later, by which time I have moved on and purchased something else or similar item at my original offer. I am sure this is a very common occurrence.
user237428934
User deletion pending
I thought the TO is a private seller and has no shop. So I don't think a private seller has to adopt some market sales models.
slightly off topc: I only sell in a large German Photo Forum. No fees for placing an ad. Only private sellers. I sell for a fixed price with shipping included, nothing extra. And I only buy to that conditions. Works perfectly well. And almost no one uses paypal there because bank to bank money transfer is free of charge in Germany, but of course it offers no buyer protection.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
F*** paypal!
Their rules and regulations mean nothing as I found out after they cost me $400.00 when I got scammed ... then didn't want to know about it!
Their rules and regulations mean nothing as I found out after they cost me $400.00 when I got scammed ... then didn't want to know about it!
ferider
Veteran
If you don't like what a seller asks, don't buy.
oftheherd
Veteran
Why don't you let us know how you really feel Keith?
Was that as a buyer or seller. I have heard some sellers complain that ebay and paypal offer little to no protection for sellers. Besides profit, what are the fees for?
ray*j*gun
Veteran
I mean who cares just price the item to cover the fees if that's what you feel is fair. Folks are only going to pay what they think the item is worth so whats the diff how you spell it out. I mean you could also discuss the morality/legality of charging the buyer the price of the Ad.
oftheherd
Veteran
Pretty much how I look at it. In the case of the Contax 167mt I recently bought, and questioned the postage on, I was still glad to get it at the combined price. As a buyer, I was just hoping if I was getting scammed, I might negotiate a little lower. Once many of our Canadian fellow RFFers confirmed the shipping, I was happier.
But I have often let deals go because I felt a combined cost was more than I wanted to pay. It's how business works. Happens in brick and mortar stores as well.
Of course, I say all that as a buyer only. I have yet to sell on ebay.
nolasafari
Member
I think a private seller dose, maybe unknowingly, if you sell one item or a thousand you have to price it and market it how you do that is the model you use. The item I am selling also has a lot to do with the model I use. Tom I like the sales model you listed and is the one I use the most, simple, fast, straightforward a good way to go. I do use other models for certain items. The word strategy could be substituted for model.
Jim
Last edited:
nolasafari
Member
Fair Market Value and the Ad is overhead.
Like buying a car and the dealer has all the additional line items, paint protection, window etching, fresh air in the tires.
Jim
Jamie123
Veteran
Just to clarify, I personally never had problems with adding the paypal fee to the price. I usually only add 3% even though PP actually charges me 3.9% plus additional charges and a crappy mandatory currency conversion rate. All in all it usually adds up to about 5% of the sale price.
Anyways, the reason why I'm writing this here is that on numerous occasions some people on this board have made the argument that people who explicitly add PP fees to a sale price are violating the PP ToS and therefore they are dishonest and morally questionable.
Personally I have no intention of either selling or buying anything through PP now or in the near future. I just thought I'd point this out to lay this silly argument to rest once and for all. Credit Card companies get away with a lot in the US but it doesn't mean that the same goes for the rest of the world.
Anyways, the reason why I'm writing this here is that on numerous occasions some people on this board have made the argument that people who explicitly add PP fees to a sale price are violating the PP ToS and therefore they are dishonest and morally questionable.
Personally I have no intention of either selling or buying anything through PP now or in the near future. I just thought I'd point this out to lay this silly argument to rest once and for all. Credit Card companies get away with a lot in the US but it doesn't mean that the same goes for the rest of the world.
How much extra do you pay for a premium account?
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Gee, this sounds exactly like the U.S. real estate sales model. One can debate how well this is currently working.
German Tom has the idea. Make it very simple for the potential buyer to actually buy by having a fixed price. Personally, I am much less inclined to buy here on RFF when the seller asks for PayPay fees in addition to shipping. I just see it as an indication that the seller may be a nit-picker and hard to deal with. And as a seller, I would not want to be answering all the PM's about what the bottom line price is.
Jamie123
Veteran
But if you read my first post you can see that, depending on where you live, you may actually be require to list the PP fee seperately if you surcharge for payments via PP.
I don't think it has much to do with nit-picking by the way. If someone states "add 3% for PP" it simply means that this surcharge only applies when you pay via PP (as opposed to, e.g. bank transfer or local pick up).
tlitody
Well-known
if you are selling at auction a la feebay then what do you expect. Most buyers are going to pay the lowest price possible and if you set a fixed price they won't play. Add to that the fact that feebay seem to think sellers are all con men and protect only the buyer and you have to ask yourself why you would use an online auction site to sell anything.
I sold a largeformat camera by setting up my own mini webpage for it. It took a while but someone eventually went for it and paid by bank transfer. No problems. PayPal didn't come into the equation. I'll do the same for a couple of largeformat lenses I want to sell.
What really put me off febay/paypal was they started holding the money for 21 days and told me it was for my own protection. i.e. buyer buys, they hold money but I have to send items out. So if it was for my protection and payment was from stolen card, then how am I being protected. They would just say its not their fault and I'd lose my items. I won't use feebay again.
If you sell privately through your own webpage then you can charge all overheads as you like outside of the stupid terms feebay set.
I sold a largeformat camera by setting up my own mini webpage for it. It took a while but someone eventually went for it and paid by bank transfer. No problems. PayPal didn't come into the equation. I'll do the same for a couple of largeformat lenses I want to sell.
What really put me off febay/paypal was they started holding the money for 21 days and told me it was for my own protection. i.e. buyer buys, they hold money but I have to send items out. So if it was for my protection and payment was from stolen card, then how am I being protected. They would just say its not their fault and I'd lose my items. I won't use feebay again.
If you sell privately through your own webpage then you can charge all overheads as you like outside of the stupid terms feebay set.