helvetica
Well-known
I have an itch to try and build a C41 film processing machine, and yes - I am aware that it will probably be more trouble than it's worth. I saw this very rudimentary automated dunk style machine and was curious about if this is even a viable system, with no inversions or hard taps that I am used to in B&W hand tank development.
What I was ultimately looking at was a continuous feed system where the strip of film was slowly fed through the various baths and stages. One end of the strip may be totally processed and dry while the other end has yet to go through the developer. This is how I understand minilab (ie, drugstore) systems work - can anyone give me any insight, or even better - repair diagrams to a system like this? (Noritsu, etc)
Why not just buy a minilab? Cost and batch size. I'm wanting something that I can run a few rolls through and be done, not mix up gallons of blix. Also, the challenge (at the moment) sounds fun.
What I was ultimately looking at was a continuous feed system where the strip of film was slowly fed through the various baths and stages. One end of the strip may be totally processed and dry while the other end has yet to go through the developer. This is how I understand minilab (ie, drugstore) systems work - can anyone give me any insight, or even better - repair diagrams to a system like this? (Noritsu, etc)
Why not just buy a minilab? Cost and batch size. I'm wanting something that I can run a few rolls through and be done, not mix up gallons of blix. Also, the challenge (at the moment) sounds fun.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
There is a minilab forum out there somewhere. I only consulted with them a few years ago but forgot the url.
I used to be an AgfaLab maintenance tech and this idea is feasible (a guy at an old lab I used to work at had built his own C-41 machine) but makes my brain hurt when thinking about making my own system.
Basically, you need to worry about light-tightness, water-tightness, transport consistency and temperature consistency.
I think a good material to use for the main side/tank supports is lexan or very thick plexiglass. Both are easily machined and can be precisely drilled. You're going to need some tanks which can withstand the chemistry. No sealants like silicone will work. This is where rubbermaid comes in to play.
The individual roller transports themselves are not too complex to make by yourself but there are so many pieces and the precision has to be perfect. If you don't mind using other parts, you can save a lot of headaches by sourcing a few of the shallow tank transports. If you use the Agfa ones, you'll need a 1/4" wide bicycle chain to pull them along. This is kind of the cool Rube Goldberg part. You can do a flywheel governed manual transport which you would spin up yourself to a minimum operating speed. You could also do a direct-drive one which could be operated by hand as well. For both of these you would need to do a gear reduction since the film itself moves through hot C41 chemistry about 3"/second and keeping that kind of consistency by hand without a gear reduction is almost impossible. The flywheel part is to help keep it rotating the same speed in case your hand or arm gets lazy or shaky or whatnot for a bit.
The temperature can be regulated by 120VAC fluid heaters. These are found cheap on ebay or chemistry supply outlets and there is little to go wrong with them even is used. They either work or they don't.Pick your desired operating temperature, buy a few then figure out where in your tank to hook them up. To regulate them you'll need a thermostat or for short runs you can just use a regular chemistry thermometer but it has to be long. These tanks get a bit deep and without a circulating pump the chemistry temperature can vary a lot between the surface and the bottom.
If you think ahead you'll be able to do black and white in this machine as well. Would only take a small amount of heat to keep your chemistry consistent.
If you keep it really simple with no valves (other than a petcock at the bottom of each tank to drain the system) you'll have no problems with algae. After draining, just wash each tank out with clean water and you'll be good to go. Once in a while clean with a 1/10 hypochlorite solution to keep everything sterile.
As for the dip and dunk, don't even go there. They are beautiful machines and when they work, they provide amazing results. Problem is they need a whole garage-sized darkroom dedicated to them since the transport has to fully pick up the rolls and move them from one tank to the next.
I began my professional film development career on a dip and dunk machine. While it was more of a pain to regulate and operate than the roller transport, it gave better results since nothing ever touched the film and there was little chance of something jamming a roll.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
I used to be an AgfaLab maintenance tech and this idea is feasible (a guy at an old lab I used to work at had built his own C-41 machine) but makes my brain hurt when thinking about making my own system.
Basically, you need to worry about light-tightness, water-tightness, transport consistency and temperature consistency.
I think a good material to use for the main side/tank supports is lexan or very thick plexiglass. Both are easily machined and can be precisely drilled. You're going to need some tanks which can withstand the chemistry. No sealants like silicone will work. This is where rubbermaid comes in to play.
The individual roller transports themselves are not too complex to make by yourself but there are so many pieces and the precision has to be perfect. If you don't mind using other parts, you can save a lot of headaches by sourcing a few of the shallow tank transports. If you use the Agfa ones, you'll need a 1/4" wide bicycle chain to pull them along. This is kind of the cool Rube Goldberg part. You can do a flywheel governed manual transport which you would spin up yourself to a minimum operating speed. You could also do a direct-drive one which could be operated by hand as well. For both of these you would need to do a gear reduction since the film itself moves through hot C41 chemistry about 3"/second and keeping that kind of consistency by hand without a gear reduction is almost impossible. The flywheel part is to help keep it rotating the same speed in case your hand or arm gets lazy or shaky or whatnot for a bit.
The temperature can be regulated by 120VAC fluid heaters. These are found cheap on ebay or chemistry supply outlets and there is little to go wrong with them even is used. They either work or they don't.Pick your desired operating temperature, buy a few then figure out where in your tank to hook them up. To regulate them you'll need a thermostat or for short runs you can just use a regular chemistry thermometer but it has to be long. These tanks get a bit deep and without a circulating pump the chemistry temperature can vary a lot between the surface and the bottom.
If you think ahead you'll be able to do black and white in this machine as well. Would only take a small amount of heat to keep your chemistry consistent.
If you keep it really simple with no valves (other than a petcock at the bottom of each tank to drain the system) you'll have no problems with algae. After draining, just wash each tank out with clean water and you'll be good to go. Once in a while clean with a 1/10 hypochlorite solution to keep everything sterile.
As for the dip and dunk, don't even go there. They are beautiful machines and when they work, they provide amazing results. Problem is they need a whole garage-sized darkroom dedicated to them since the transport has to fully pick up the rolls and move them from one tank to the next.
I began my professional film development career on a dip and dunk machine. While it was more of a pain to regulate and operate than the roller transport, it gave better results since nothing ever touched the film and there was little chance of something jamming a roll.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
helvetica
Well-known
Very insightful comments, thank you - I may have plenty to follow up with later. I am trying to go with as simple as possible to start, as that will reduce the number of headaches and systems to design and fabricate - like valves, as you pointed out.
In looking up (on youtube) how dip 'n dunk works, it looks like the use bubbles for agitation - is that true? The original link that I had posted used dip 'n dunk processing of film that was already loaded on a plastic processing reel. Bubbles seem like they would stick around in this case, and cause uneven development issues.
In looking up (on youtube) how dip 'n dunk works, it looks like the use bubbles for agitation - is that true? The original link that I had posted used dip 'n dunk processing of film that was already loaded on a plastic processing reel. Bubbles seem like they would stick around in this case, and cause uneven development issues.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Yes, bubbles are used in dip and dunk but the one I used hung the film from clothes-hangar like racks with wheels that the film hung over, emulsion side out. At the bottom of the film loop, the ends were pinched together with a stainless hanger clip that had a weight inside. Once inside the tank, the film doesn't touch itself and the bubble agitation doesn't have any effect on sticking to the film. I've never noticed it at least and that lab i worked for was considered one of the best on the west coast at the time.
Regulating the bubbles could be a pain too. You could try using nitrogen as it wouldn't oxidize the chemistry like simple compressed air does. This would take something like a scuba regulator and a timed solenoid to open the valve occasionally.
Phil Forrest
Regulating the bubbles could be a pain too. You could try using nitrogen as it wouldn't oxidize the chemistry like simple compressed air does. This would take something like a scuba regulator and a timed solenoid to open the valve occasionally.
Phil Forrest
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Have you considered a handline? Basically a system of heated tanks with lids you put the film in baskets and agitate by moving the baskets up and down.
The processors
http://www.richards.uk.com/filmindx.htm
The baskets
http://www.hewes.co.uk/hcages.htm
I've used the and dip and dunks, the above are smaller, cheaper and give better results.
If you want a D&D look for an old Sitte or Refrema though those things are industrial and need maintenance, setting up and a 3 phase power supply-not to mention the 30-60L solution tanks need replenishment so that the tank solution is changed every 2 weeks or so.
The processors
http://www.richards.uk.com/filmindx.htm
The baskets
http://www.hewes.co.uk/hcages.htm
I've used the and dip and dunks, the above are smaller, cheaper and give better results.
If you want a D&D look for an old Sitte or Refrema though those things are industrial and need maintenance, setting up and a 3 phase power supply-not to mention the 30-60L solution tanks need replenishment so that the tank solution is changed every 2 weeks or so.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Another vote for a hand line, but only if you're processing a LOT of film (preferably in seasoned developer, for B+W). I have a couple of Novas that I've used for E6 (5x4 and 35/120).
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Mark C
Well-known
Or a Jobo.
C41 is a pretty simple process. I've run it in stainless tanks for rollfilm, but my effort has mostly gone to finding a good way to process very large single shot roll films from Cirkut Camera shots. Not what you are doing, but has all the problems you are dealing with, and then some. I've run these in 10" x 6' rolls in C41 by hand in open dish tubs, Patterson tanks on modified reels, Hope roller transport machines, old military surplus tanks using rewind processing, and for the last 10 years or more in Jobos with modified reels. All worked and gave decent printable negatives, but the Jobo and roller transport gave me the best results (Patterson and rewind gave the worst, btw).
Roller transport is very fussy. Even the commercially made ones could be troublesome. Sink line and hand lines are very simple and reliable. Jobo also.
C41 is a pretty simple process. I've run it in stainless tanks for rollfilm, but my effort has mostly gone to finding a good way to process very large single shot roll films from Cirkut Camera shots. Not what you are doing, but has all the problems you are dealing with, and then some. I've run these in 10" x 6' rolls in C41 by hand in open dish tubs, Patterson tanks on modified reels, Hope roller transport machines, old military surplus tanks using rewind processing, and for the last 10 years or more in Jobos with modified reels. All worked and gave decent printable negatives, but the Jobo and roller transport gave me the best results (Patterson and rewind gave the worst, btw).
Roller transport is very fussy. Even the commercially made ones could be troublesome. Sink line and hand lines are very simple and reliable. Jobo also.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Yep a Jobo is best if you are processing less than 10-15 rolls a week as that's the sort of minimum throughput you'll need to keep a hand line in control.
A few other ideas here:
http://www.secondhanddarkroom.co.uk/index.php/s-h_processors/?k=:5::
A few other ideas here:
http://www.secondhanddarkroom.co.uk/index.php/s-h_processors/?k=:5::