k__43
Registered Film User
Hey all
I used a X100 for quite a while and now own a X-E1 w/ the 18/2. I love the quality I got of either of them but one thing really sucks, AF in low light (even with that annoying aid light) I can't believe how many shots I lost sometimes even in ok-ish lightning conditions (w/ closer focusing distances).
So I thought I might migrate to a second gen camera. Is it much better with those phase detection pixels or is this only marginal better and the rest is marketing BS? I do not mean focusing speed, I mean focus in general. I do not care about if it's 0.1 or 0.4 seconds as long as my subject is in focus not the background.
so?
I used a X100 for quite a while and now own a X-E1 w/ the 18/2. I love the quality I got of either of them but one thing really sucks, AF in low light (even with that annoying aid light) I can't believe how many shots I lost sometimes even in ok-ish lightning conditions (w/ closer focusing distances).
So I thought I might migrate to a second gen camera. Is it much better with those phase detection pixels or is this only marginal better and the rest is marketing BS? I do not mean focusing speed, I mean focus in general. I do not care about if it's 0.1 or 0.4 seconds as long as my subject is in focus not the background.
so?
k__43
Registered Film User
anyone? -----
OlliL
Well-known
AF 
Jk Kay, I have no idea.
I don't even own any AF lens anymore tho.
Jk Kay, I have no idea.
I don't even own any AF lens anymore tho.
k__43
Registered Film User
my son is getting too fast for manual focusing (I use the XE1 almost only for this)
willie_901
Veteran
The second generation bodies are focus better because their on-board CPUs are faster. This not only increase focus speed, but it also mean more sophisticated firmware algorithms can be used to improve overall focus performance.
The older XF lenses use slower, AF motors compared to newer lenses.
As you mention there are two concerns. One is focusing on what you intend to focus on and the other is speed. The former can be controlled by using different AF menu selection for different scenes and lot s of practice. The latter depends on the lens and CPU speed.
The phase detection AF mode does offer improvements. However the subject must be in the the center of the frame where the phase-sensitive pixels are located. Initially using the PD AF is unsettling. It seems as though the camera is hunting for focus and nothing could ever be in focus. But in fact this is how the system is designed to work. With practice, PD AF works well for subjects in motion. It really helps to use newer lenses with faster AF motors. Unlike many DSLRs, the PD AF is not predictive. You must track the subject by moving the camera. This difference frustrates many people transitioning from DSLRs to X-series cameras.
Even with a DSLRs know for fast AF (Nikon D300/700) I used off-camera flashes triggered with wireless remotes for my grandkids. I just set the flash(s) on a shelf or on top of furniture and bounce it off the wall/ceiling. If you use ISO 800 or so, the flash power can be low which means the recycle times are quick. The extra light makes a big difference. I do the same thing with the X-Pro 1 (slower AF, no PD) as well as the XT-1 (much faster, predictive AF). A Yongnuo YN-560-III strobe with the Yongnuo RF-603C-II trigger costs about $130.
The older XF lenses use slower, AF motors compared to newer lenses.
As you mention there are two concerns. One is focusing on what you intend to focus on and the other is speed. The former can be controlled by using different AF menu selection for different scenes and lot s of practice. The latter depends on the lens and CPU speed.
The phase detection AF mode does offer improvements. However the subject must be in the the center of the frame where the phase-sensitive pixels are located. Initially using the PD AF is unsettling. It seems as though the camera is hunting for focus and nothing could ever be in focus. But in fact this is how the system is designed to work. With practice, PD AF works well for subjects in motion. It really helps to use newer lenses with faster AF motors. Unlike many DSLRs, the PD AF is not predictive. You must track the subject by moving the camera. This difference frustrates many people transitioning from DSLRs to X-series cameras.
Even with a DSLRs know for fast AF (Nikon D300/700) I used off-camera flashes triggered with wireless remotes for my grandkids. I just set the flash(s) on a shelf or on top of furniture and bounce it off the wall/ceiling. If you use ISO 800 or so, the flash power can be low which means the recycle times are quick. The extra light makes a big difference. I do the same thing with the X-Pro 1 (slower AF, no PD) as well as the XT-1 (much faster, predictive AF). A Yongnuo YN-560-III strobe with the Yongnuo RF-603C-II trigger costs about $130.
porktaco
Well-known
isn't the other issue video refresh. i always felt that i pushed the shutter button and got a different photo when i had an xe-1. i think it's because the EVF hadn't quite refreshed quickly enough
MCTuomey
Veteran
I've been using an X-T1 for about nine months now, no experience with prior X-series cameras, and my AF use prior to the X-T1 was with Canon 1- and 5-series bodies for sports, events, and music performance. My X-series lenses include the newer models, like the 55-200, 56/1.2, and 23/1.4.
I shoot in clubs and dark venues these days. ISO 3200 the minimum with faster glass. I really like my files from the X-T1 a lot, very flexible in post, zero banding when pushed at high iso, etc., but I find the AF very frustrating. Just too slow, too many re-racks, too many misses, especially at close distances. (This at single, continuous is a bad joke.) Longer story made short, I'm nearly ready to move back to Canon for this one reason alone, despite the many, many x-series advantages. I'm going to see whether the December firmware update makes a significant difference (especially with the back button AF implementation) and then decide.
If I were you, I'd try to rent an X-E2 or an X-T1 (or maybe purchase from a seller with a liberal return policy). Everyone is different in need and expectation - probably best to rely on yourself rather than other's experience.
I shoot in clubs and dark venues these days. ISO 3200 the minimum with faster glass. I really like my files from the X-T1 a lot, very flexible in post, zero banding when pushed at high iso, etc., but I find the AF very frustrating. Just too slow, too many re-racks, too many misses, especially at close distances. (This at single, continuous is a bad joke.) Longer story made short, I'm nearly ready to move back to Canon for this one reason alone, despite the many, many x-series advantages. I'm going to see whether the December firmware update makes a significant difference (especially with the back button AF implementation) and then decide.
If I were you, I'd try to rent an X-E2 or an X-T1 (or maybe purchase from a seller with a liberal return policy). Everyone is different in need and expectation - probably best to rely on yourself rather than other's experience.
k__43
Registered Film User
Thanks for the input.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'd love a 23/1.4 but the X100S seems the more economic way, but I find the X-E1 better for my clumsy hands-
I'd love AF performance of an Canon 5D MII with a 35/2, but I do not want that huge thing in my bag (also slightly out of budget).
I'm actually more satisfied with the AF of my T2 than the Fuji but I'm already behind with developing and scanning my films that I want to keep at least the family stuff out (also it's more immediate to share).
I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'd love a 23/1.4 but the X100S seems the more economic way, but I find the X-E1 better for my clumsy hands-
I'd love AF performance of an Canon 5D MII with a 35/2, but I do not want that huge thing in my bag (also slightly out of budget).
I'm actually more satisfied with the AF of my T2 than the Fuji but I'm already behind with developing and scanning my films that I want to keep at least the family stuff out (also it's more immediate to share).
MCTuomey
Veteran
Good luck with your decision-making, K. Btw, the Canon 6D is only fractionally larger (~1/2 inch around or less) than the X-T1 and the 35/2 is about the same size as Fuji's 23/1.4. The X-series are better-looking, though
porktaco
Well-known
sadly, this is kind of where i think i'd come out if i were to buy a new x kit. my expectation is that the af is fine if there's a lot of light but it blows in tough conditions. i've read nothing to change my expectation.
OlliL
Well-known
Slightly off, but I had the chance to use an OMD EM5 the other day and the AF was way more snappy than my X-E1. The bodies are so cheap now, that this might be another option.
nongfuspring
Well-known
As much as I'd like to say otherwise between the X-E1 and X100S there isn't a huge difference in low light. In normal light the X100S is significantly more responsive but still hunts when the light isn't so great. No doubt it's a step up, but personally I'd hesitate to recommend an S if your only concern is low light focussing.
Why don't they make cameras with IR focussing like the Hexar anymore? X series cameras would be ideal candidates. Frustrates me to no end.
Why don't they make cameras with IR focussing like the Hexar anymore? X series cameras would be ideal candidates. Frustrates me to no end.
boomguy57
Well-known
I have the X100S, had the X100; had the XE-2, and used the XE-1.
I'd say the focusing is better in the newer generation, but not by a lot. The EVFs have gotten much better, which helps. Still, the X100S, which I still have and use a lot, is really tough for shots of my son. Unless I ask him to stand still, it's virtually impossible. He's almost 10 and moves really fast, all the time.
For this reason I dumped my interchangeable X bodies and went with the Olympus EM1. NO more focusing problems now, and the output is hardly different, even at ISO 3200. I have to say that I don't actually think the high ISO Fuji X performance is as good as others seem to think it is. But that's just my opinion.
I'd say the focusing is better in the newer generation, but not by a lot. The EVFs have gotten much better, which helps. Still, the X100S, which I still have and use a lot, is really tough for shots of my son. Unless I ask him to stand still, it's virtually impossible. He's almost 10 and moves really fast, all the time.
For this reason I dumped my interchangeable X bodies and went with the Olympus EM1. NO more focusing problems now, and the output is hardly different, even at ISO 3200. I have to say that I don't actually think the high ISO Fuji X performance is as good as others seem to think it is. But that's just my opinion.
k__43
Registered Film User
Thanks again guys. That is a lot to chew on. I've seen the AF speed of a current Oly E-PL (dunno which number, newest model) and was stunned. I used a E-P1 with the Pana 14mm before I went Fuji.
The main reason for me to change systems was the handling, this is where I believe Fuji is the only company doing the right thing (except for leica maybe but that is waaaaay out of my budget). Maybe I go back and get a MFT with the pana's again. If the aperture selector of the leica 15mm would work with Oly's that would be my deal
I was considering a Nikon D600 + 35mm but that is so heavy & bulky compared to my Fuji.
I guess I'll stay where I am .. although the wifi feature of the X-E2 is tempting, so is the focal width of the X100S aaaarrrrgggghhhh
The main reason for me to change systems was the handling, this is where I believe Fuji is the only company doing the right thing (except for leica maybe but that is waaaaay out of my budget). Maybe I go back and get a MFT with the pana's again. If the aperture selector of the leica 15mm would work with Oly's that would be my deal
I was considering a Nikon D600 + 35mm but that is so heavy & bulky compared to my Fuji.
I guess I'll stay where I am .. although the wifi feature of the X-E2 is tempting, so is the focal width of the X100S aaaarrrrgggghhhh
k__43
Registered Film User
So .. another couple of nice shots ruined by the X-E1s inability to focus. I feel like I'm pulling the plug soon.
It seems to be primary in the half meter range when my son is looking at me. My guess is that the camera has a (anti-)smile detector that puts it off focus when he is looking friendly.
I'm eyeballing a Leica 15 + Pana GM5 a lot right now but the street prices suggest a GX7 instead (and probably paired with the aperture wheel less Oly 17/1.8). I'll go to the chain store electronics dealer this weak and see how it feels in my hand.
It seems to be primary in the half meter range when my son is looking at me. My guess is that the camera has a (anti-)smile detector that puts it off focus when he is looking friendly.
I'm eyeballing a Leica 15 + Pana GM5 a lot right now but the street prices suggest a GX7 instead (and probably paired with the aperture wheel less Oly 17/1.8). I'll go to the chain store electronics dealer this weak and see how it feels in my hand.
GaryLH
Veteran
U might want to try the Sony a6000 while u are at the camera store. It is at least as fast as the m43 cameras w/ native Sony or Sony/Zeiss lens.. Apsc in general will provide a bit more dynamic range then m43. Sigma and Zeiss (toit) are slower.. B&h may still have it for 448 for the body.
If u are using the any of the original set of Fuji lenses as I am, they are the slowest that Fuji has produced. This because Fuji did not realise how fast they needed to be..their af motors are not as fast as the later lenses like the 18-55 or 23 or 56. Each generation of bodies after the initial xp1/xe1 have had af speed improvements. Personally, I am waiting to c what they do in terms of a xe3 and xp2 in 2015.
The Sony e mount line is does not have a well rounded lines lineup compared to Fuji let alone m43. The fe lens roadmap looks nice, but full frame lenses are going to be bigger.
I find that for me the gm line from Panasonic is a bit too small... I opted for the gx7 instead. The current sale price is hard to beat. There are a lot of good m43 lenses out there.
Good luck
Gary
If u are using the any of the original set of Fuji lenses as I am, they are the slowest that Fuji has produced. This because Fuji did not realise how fast they needed to be..their af motors are not as fast as the later lenses like the 18-55 or 23 or 56. Each generation of bodies after the initial xp1/xe1 have had af speed improvements. Personally, I am waiting to c what they do in terms of a xe3 and xp2 in 2015.
The Sony e mount line is does not have a well rounded lines lineup compared to Fuji let alone m43. The fe lens roadmap looks nice, but full frame lenses are going to be bigger.
I find that for me the gm line from Panasonic is a bit too small... I opted for the gx7 instead. The current sale price is hard to beat. There are a lot of good m43 lenses out there.
Good luck
Gary
k__43
Registered Film User
I know, I tried the a6000 nice camera, I actually liked it better than the GX7. The Zeiss 24/1.8 is what I'd want. unfortunately that combo is too expensive for me.
I also tried the GM5 which looks awesome and is great in theory, but way too small for me.
I definitely consider a Nikon D600 + 35/2 AF-D now, although way too big actually but that might just be what I need otherwise (and not much more money than a X100S). That combo can be bought used at around 900€ now.
Will see what the rumored FW upgrade brings and decide after the holidays.
I also tried the GM5 which looks awesome and is great in theory, but way too small for me.
I definitely consider a Nikon D600 + 35/2 AF-D now, although way too big actually but that might just be what I need otherwise (and not much more money than a X100S). That combo can be bought used at around 900€ now.
Will see what the rumored FW upgrade brings and decide after the holidays.
GaryLH
Veteran
The only worry on the d600 is the oily shutter issue.. If I remember correctly, Nikon finally gave up and did a recall. Not sure if this pertains to used cameras and second owners??? I have also read that if are patient, u can eventually get rid of the oil over time.. There is a writeup at lensrental.com about it.
The x100 w/ its leaf shutter is going to be so quiet, u are going to wonder at times if it actually took a shot
unlike a dslr, when u use a mirrorless camera, like the a6000, what u c is what u get.
Gary
The x100 w/ its leaf shutter is going to be so quiet, u are going to wonder at times if it actually took a shot
unlike a dslr, when u use a mirrorless camera, like the a6000, what u c is what u get.
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
Forgot to mention...Those Zeiss 24f1.8 come up in the used market all the time.
An xe1 or xe2 w/ the new 23f1.4 IMHO maybe just as good as the a6000 w/ the 24f1.8 if slower af than the a6000 is ok by u. For me the 16mp of the Fuji vs the 24 of the Sony is not an issue. The zoom and prime lens lineup of Fuji is so much better than the Sony lineup. Lens quality is very very good. About a push, so I don't need to crop as much as I do w/ the Sony. The only reasons I own Sony a6000 is for the faster af.
Theorectically, a camera w/o aa filter is around 15-20% better than a camera w/ so if u add 20% to Fuji and subtract same from Sony! though Sony is still ahead.. It is so close, it is a push.. Real life I do c a small difference, if a pixel peep, but if I print it and view normal distance, I cannot tell..
Fuji lens lineup is far superior compared to the e mount lenses. The newer fe mount lenses do look better though, but much more expensive.
The Fuji is back to basics.. Sony is not, but newer UI is a breath of fresh air compared to the Nex 5n I had. Sony is closer to back to dslr basics, however..
Gary
An xe1 or xe2 w/ the new 23f1.4 IMHO maybe just as good as the a6000 w/ the 24f1.8 if slower af than the a6000 is ok by u. For me the 16mp of the Fuji vs the 24 of the Sony is not an issue. The zoom and prime lens lineup of Fuji is so much better than the Sony lineup. Lens quality is very very good. About a push, so I don't need to crop as much as I do w/ the Sony. The only reasons I own Sony a6000 is for the faster af.
Theorectically, a camera w/o aa filter is around 15-20% better than a camera w/ so if u add 20% to Fuji and subtract same from Sony! though Sony is still ahead.. It is so close, it is a push.. Real life I do c a small difference, if a pixel peep, but if I print it and view normal distance, I cannot tell..
Fuji lens lineup is far superior compared to the e mount lenses. The newer fe mount lenses do look better though, but much more expensive.
The Fuji is back to basics.. Sony is not, but newer UI is a breath of fresh air compared to the Nex 5n I had. Sony is closer to back to dslr basics, however..
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
Came across this utube video. Fuji xt1 at a professional photo shoot. What is most interesting here is somewhere in the last 5-9 minutes they talk about Fuji 16mp sensor vs other 16 and also how well it compares to 24mp sensor.
http://youtu.be/ZT9xJTrHJHc
Where the 24 mp will show moire, the 16mp from Fuji still looks good. Pretty falls in line w/ what I have also experienced.
I already decided to bypass the xt1. Looking at the next gen .. Xe3 or xp2 in 2015.. By then I hope they use at least the Sony 24mp 179 point phase detect sensor of the a6000 w/ their xtran filter array.
Rumor has it that their organic sensor is having issues related to heat, so doesn't look good for 2015 right now.
Gary
http://youtu.be/ZT9xJTrHJHc
Where the 24 mp will show moire, the 16mp from Fuji still looks good. Pretty falls in line w/ what I have also experienced.
I already decided to bypass the xt1. Looking at the next gen .. Xe3 or xp2 in 2015.. By then I hope they use at least the Sony 24mp 179 point phase detect sensor of the a6000 w/ their xtran filter array.
Rumor has it that their organic sensor is having issues related to heat, so doesn't look good for 2015 right now.
Gary