Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
Dear all,
as we could learn yesterday from the German TV program "Report" it
turns out that AGFA Foto was indeed intentionally driven into a
insolvency only to get rid of the employees at minimum costs.
The company started in 11/04 with an equity capital of Euro 300 Mio
and the somehow they managed to get insolvent now anyhow, with a top
secret strategy while telling the public always how fine the company
runs and develops for future markets.
A significant fact is that there were no banks involved with outside
capital, they never tried to get some.
And after the insolvency was announced they refused the support offer
of the state government , which proves that they are not interested in
saving the company at all but to destroy it defintivley.
From the the beginning on it was the plan of that crook owning he
stock majority ( long may his soul rot in hell) to run the company down , just to get rid of most of the people and to sell the most profitable core biz fillets.
Most of the 2400 people will get fired and because of the insolvency
they will not get more than 3000 - 10.000 Euro compensation, if at all if they are lucky.
Otherwise the company would have to pay about 80.000 Euros average compensation per employee.
A lesson how to save about 160 Mio Euros by killing a profitable enterprose inrntionally.
One of the fillets will be the digital printing machines which still keep the global technological leadership side by side with Fuji. What else will survive I don't know, could be film and soup will vanish, not sure.
It's an old and well known destructive game of those greedy crooks who have nothing in mind than a quick and dirty profit, but but for film and soup amateurs this is a sad story and in times we fight for each single job in Germany this makes the people really upset.
The public prosecutors office in Cologne at the time checks if there is
enuff dynamite in this story for a trial and as it seems there IS enuff !
Bertram
as we could learn yesterday from the German TV program "Report" it
turns out that AGFA Foto was indeed intentionally driven into a
insolvency only to get rid of the employees at minimum costs.
The company started in 11/04 with an equity capital of Euro 300 Mio
and the somehow they managed to get insolvent now anyhow, with a top
secret strategy while telling the public always how fine the company
runs and develops for future markets.
A significant fact is that there were no banks involved with outside
capital, they never tried to get some.
And after the insolvency was announced they refused the support offer
of the state government , which proves that they are not interested in
saving the company at all but to destroy it defintivley.
From the the beginning on it was the plan of that crook owning he
stock majority ( long may his soul rot in hell) to run the company down , just to get rid of most of the people and to sell the most profitable core biz fillets.
Most of the 2400 people will get fired and because of the insolvency
they will not get more than 3000 - 10.000 Euro compensation, if at all if they are lucky.
Otherwise the company would have to pay about 80.000 Euros average compensation per employee.
A lesson how to save about 160 Mio Euros by killing a profitable enterprose inrntionally.
One of the fillets will be the digital printing machines which still keep the global technological leadership side by side with Fuji. What else will survive I don't know, could be film and soup will vanish, not sure.
It's an old and well known destructive game of those greedy crooks who have nothing in mind than a quick and dirty profit, but but for film and soup amateurs this is a sad story and in times we fight for each single job in Germany this makes the people really upset.
The public prosecutors office in Cologne at the time checks if there is
enuff dynamite in this story for a trial and as it seems there IS enuff !
Bertram
R
RichardS
Guest
If it was a top secret strategy how do you know about it?
Dick
Dick
taffer
void
Sad to read Bertram 
I'll be EXTREMELY happy if someday in the future the law falls on them, but I seriously doubt it. And btw I've seen exactly the same in small business/factories here in my town, and the most sad part is that after doing it with one enterprise, once they run 'out' of money, they'll do the same to another one.
So much for liberal economics.
I'll be EXTREMELY happy if someday in the future the law falls on them, but I seriously doubt it. And btw I've seen exactly the same in small business/factories here in my town, and the most sad part is that after doing it with one enterprise, once they run 'out' of money, they'll do the same to another one.So much for liberal economics.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
To say the least boardroom ethics have seriously declined in recent times. Short term gains seem to be the mindset of the day.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
It's called investigative journalism. cf Woodward & Bernstein.RichardS said:
Trius
bmattock
Veteran
For those who are unaware of it - in the US, it is easier for companies to 'downsize' and just lay off employees when a company wants to cut back. In Germany and many other places in the EU, it is harder for companies to just lay employees off - there are laws in place that forbid it, or which require that the company doing the layoffs pay large settlements to the workers it lets go. These laws are designed to protect workers, and of course their intentions are good.
This is an essential difference between an 'at will employment' state and a 'right to work' state - one lets companies behave in their own best interest without regard to employees, and the other attempts to regulate what companies can do with regard to employees once hired. I admire the fact that Germany wants to protect workers.
I am being critical of NO particular system; I just note with sadness that when a company wants to lay employees off, they will find a way to do so; regardless of the political situation. In this case, Agfa appears to have spun off a division and then intentionally starved it. When the company becomes insolvent, the workers can be let go without massive compensation. Agfa may have broken German law by doing this intentionally - but prosecuting them will hardly bring the jobs back or help the workers much, unless I'm wrong.
I wish corporations behaved with more thought about the needs of their employees and not with 100% focus on the bottom line, but the fact is that in a capitalist system, corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders and not to their employees as such.
I don't think that there is any fix for it - you can't regulate companies into being good corporate citizens and kind to their employees. Alternate economic systems have their drawbacks as well - you get Zils and Zorkis instead of Leicas and Nikons even if everyone has a job for life.
There is no good answer - I'm sorry for the AgfaPhoto workers who lost their jobs and I hope they are able to find something else quickly.
I live in a 'at will' state in the US. I can leave my job without notice and they can let me go for no reason and also without notice. Different advantages, different disadvantages - but in the end, it all works out about the same, I'm afraid.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
This is an essential difference between an 'at will employment' state and a 'right to work' state - one lets companies behave in their own best interest without regard to employees, and the other attempts to regulate what companies can do with regard to employees once hired. I admire the fact that Germany wants to protect workers.
I am being critical of NO particular system; I just note with sadness that when a company wants to lay employees off, they will find a way to do so; regardless of the political situation. In this case, Agfa appears to have spun off a division and then intentionally starved it. When the company becomes insolvent, the workers can be let go without massive compensation. Agfa may have broken German law by doing this intentionally - but prosecuting them will hardly bring the jobs back or help the workers much, unless I'm wrong.
I wish corporations behaved with more thought about the needs of their employees and not with 100% focus on the bottom line, but the fact is that in a capitalist system, corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders and not to their employees as such.
I don't think that there is any fix for it - you can't regulate companies into being good corporate citizens and kind to their employees. Alternate economic systems have their drawbacks as well - you get Zils and Zorkis instead of Leicas and Nikons even if everyone has a job for life.
There is no good answer - I'm sorry for the AgfaPhoto workers who lost their jobs and I hope they are able to find something else quickly.
I live in a 'at will' state in the US. I can leave my job without notice and they can let me go for no reason and also without notice. Different advantages, different disadvantages - but in the end, it all works out about the same, I'm afraid.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Bill, this reminds of a Country Western song that has been popular my local radio station this year that has the catchy phrase, "We can't make it here anymore."
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
RichardS said:
Because it was all done undercover. All public statements of the board were absolutely the opposite, no probs at all but an optimistic outlook. This insolvency seemed to come outta nowhere, absolutely unexpected, but of course they had worked hard on it all the time. Not easy to burn all that money in a few months.
Bertram
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
The term "good corperate citizen" is an oxymoron and these words should never, in all seriousness, be used together.
Bob
Bob
T_om
Well-known
Actually, it is a lesson on how to get around draconian laws designed to stifle business by inflicting stiff penalties on corporate shareholders.
Sorry, but the laws in place in most of Europe to "protect" workers sometimes have just the opposite effect. What property owner in his right mind will reduce the value of their assets when it is not necessary to do so?
Bill said most all there is to say about this in his post above.
Tom
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Pensions are an negotiated item so I guess it is OK to screw someone out of a pension. So why complain, if for instance, you get a camera CLA'd and it does not function properly after. You had a contractual agreement, but under the above logic it would too bad old chum. Would you really be happy in either case? It is a simple matter of ethics or complete lack of them.
Bob
Bob
T_om
Well-known
Nikon Bob said:
Nothing is either "simple" or "ethical" when big brother governments get involved. Sorry, but that ain't the way it works.
Tom
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Tom
Well, I can agree to disagree with you on that at least.
Bob
Well, I can agree to disagree with you on that at least.
Bob
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
T_om said:
This is not the story. We are talking about owners which run a healthy company down to the point of insolvency with deceitful intentions. This is a crime in Germany and AFAIK it is a crime in US too.
Bertram
julianphotoart
No likey digital-phooey
It's interesting that a story of a single company's FRAUD and DECEIT (if the news stories are true) becomes a referendum on the philosophies behind "right to work" and "at will" labour laws. Perhaps we should also ponder the legitimacy of corporations having legal status as "persons". But back to the point: corporate fraud and deceit in Germany, or corporate fraud and deceit in the U.S., or corporate fraud and deceit in Canada, are illegal and/or unlawful. Maybe the real question is the seriousness of prosecutors to do something about it. For instance, true prosecution of corporate criminal behaviour in the U.S. is a joke; it hits too close to home for the powers that be. Anyway, what is the reality in Germany? Its legal system, being a "civil law" system, may have better remedies for the shareholders who, as far as we know, were just as bamboozled as the general public.
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
julianphotoart said:
It seems to turn out that the insolvency was triggered by some subcontractors who simply did not pay their bills and how will you prove that they were part of the game ?
Difficult. If at all a trial will be started I suppose this ending with an acquittal, because " it could not be proved without any doubts", as usually.
The Stockholder's protection btw is ridiculous in Germany compared to US.
Best,
Bertram
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Being a corporate officer is tough. You might LIKE to be what the public at large considers a "good citizen." However, you are required by law to act in the financial best interests of your stockholders -- it's called being a fiduciary (one who keeps faith.)
If you determine that the best way to look out for your stockholders' financial interest is, for example, to put your employees out of work and sell off the profitable segments of your company... well, you may not like it, but you have to do that, because the people who have invested their money in your company are entitled to expect you to do your best to earn them the greatest possible return.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Jlw
That may explain it but it still does not explain the wilful destruction of a company with the intent to deceive shareholders and employees. There are far too many Enrons.
Bob
That may explain it but it still does not explain the wilful destruction of a company with the intent to deceive shareholders and employees. There are far too many Enrons.
Bob
Jan Cornelius
Member
Although I obviously don't agree with practices like this, greed has been an issue for the last 8000 years, and money has drawn people to do awfull things. "Money is the root of all evil" someone once sang.
It is however the governments responsibility to draw lines, set the border, this is whats calles "a law" people will freely moce inside these laws and try to find holes in the net so they can slip out and back in without anybody noticing (noticing openly that is) In Germany today we have a socialistic government it is their task to look after the citisens of their country...... they don't do that, they are busy filling up their own pockets and working on their personal agendas, the common folk don't interest them one single bit, personal economy and power is what intrests them, and accordingly they act. There are many examples of this in Germany, agfa is just one of them.....
It is however the governments responsibility to draw lines, set the border, this is whats calles "a law" people will freely moce inside these laws and try to find holes in the net so they can slip out and back in without anybody noticing (noticing openly that is) In Germany today we have a socialistic government it is their task to look after the citisens of their country...... they don't do that, they are busy filling up their own pockets and working on their personal agendas, the common folk don't interest them one single bit, personal economy and power is what intrests them, and accordingly they act. There are many examples of this in Germany, agfa is just one of them.....
Uncle Bill
Well-known
Moral of the story, if this was a premeditated decision by the operating committee at Agfa to tank the photo division, ok I am disappointed at losing a line of film but wiping out a company to get rid of a work force, by running it into the ground, now that makes me mad.
Agfa was a lot more than film, their core business print and imaging technology. If anyone on this board has influence on purchases in any organization that buys from Agfa and there are competing products out there. Stick it to Agfa.
Bill
Agfa was a lot more than film, their core business print and imaging technology. If anyone on this board has influence on purchases in any organization that buys from Agfa and there are competing products out there. Stick it to Agfa.
Bill