lencap
Established
I am about to purchase a new M9 and new Summicron-M 50mm F/2.0 lens. This is a very considerable expense for me, and I'm not unaware of Fuji "alternatives" including the current X-Pro1 and the upcoming X-E1.
I briefly owned a M7, but found that as much as I enjoyed the feel and quality of the camera I didn't really know how to use it properly after shooting nothing but SLR cameras for decades. I didn't develop the "eye" for framing, composing and thinking about what I wanted the image to create.
My desire to buy a Leica is based on many intangible things - pride of ownership, quality construction and materials, and all of the things that make Leica what it is. I also admit that I'm somewhat impacted by advertising and the "exclusivity" of Leica, although it is not driving my decision.
My concern is that owning any digital camera, regardless of how good it is, at least to me is like owning the latest and greatest computer. It's only a matter of time until something new is developed and makes my current computer either obsolete (not likely for a M9), or provides more features or other tools at a lower price or more efficiently (the newly announced Leica model is a perfect example).
So from my perspective a digital camera is subject to the potential for massive depreciation since it can't easily be upgraded or made to compete with new technology.
And that is the basis for my question. I am not going to argue that the X-Pro1, or any other camera, is a "less expensive Leica". The Fuji is a fine camera, but it isn't really a Leica replacement for many reasons, all of which members of this forum know well. But, the risk of buying a $6K+ camera body that will soon face a completely rethought Leica family member is another story. I also believe that Leica will further develop their new camera capabilities, leading to the potential for more upgrades from the M9 to the newer design, potentially making my camera subject to serious "buyers remorse".
So for those who have an M9, or even better an M8/8.2, does the ability to make the picture you want with the camera you bought, outweigh the buyers remorse of seeing new Leica cameras with more features and flexibility, along with far more rapid depreciation for your current camera?
I briefly owned a M7, but found that as much as I enjoyed the feel and quality of the camera I didn't really know how to use it properly after shooting nothing but SLR cameras for decades. I didn't develop the "eye" for framing, composing and thinking about what I wanted the image to create.
My desire to buy a Leica is based on many intangible things - pride of ownership, quality construction and materials, and all of the things that make Leica what it is. I also admit that I'm somewhat impacted by advertising and the "exclusivity" of Leica, although it is not driving my decision.
My concern is that owning any digital camera, regardless of how good it is, at least to me is like owning the latest and greatest computer. It's only a matter of time until something new is developed and makes my current computer either obsolete (not likely for a M9), or provides more features or other tools at a lower price or more efficiently (the newly announced Leica model is a perfect example).
So from my perspective a digital camera is subject to the potential for massive depreciation since it can't easily be upgraded or made to compete with new technology.
And that is the basis for my question. I am not going to argue that the X-Pro1, or any other camera, is a "less expensive Leica". The Fuji is a fine camera, but it isn't really a Leica replacement for many reasons, all of which members of this forum know well. But, the risk of buying a $6K+ camera body that will soon face a completely rethought Leica family member is another story. I also believe that Leica will further develop their new camera capabilities, leading to the potential for more upgrades from the M9 to the newer design, potentially making my camera subject to serious "buyers remorse".
So for those who have an M9, or even better an M8/8.2, does the ability to make the picture you want with the camera you bought, outweigh the buyers remorse of seeing new Leica cameras with more features and flexibility, along with far more rapid depreciation for your current camera?
hteasley
Pupil
None here. I had pangs with the M8, that the M9 was what I really wanted. But now with the M, I feel pretty meh about it. I'm happy with the M9.
froyd
Veteran
Not sure why you would consider the M9 if you did not gel with the M7. The basics are the same in both cameras.
Other than that, if you are honest with yourself about your intended uses of the M9, understand and accept what YOU may perceive to be limitations, then I think the M9 is less likely to feel "old and tired" than many other digital cameras. The fact that Leica recently crowned the M9 the pinnacle of its traditional RF, CCD design, and moved on to a brand new platform with CMOS sensor, LED-lit framelines, etc, makes the M9 a camera to be desired and used for many years to come.
Other than that, if you are honest with yourself about your intended uses of the M9, understand and accept what YOU may perceive to be limitations, then I think the M9 is less likely to feel "old and tired" than many other digital cameras. The fact that Leica recently crowned the M9 the pinnacle of its traditional RF, CCD design, and moved on to a brand new platform with CMOS sensor, LED-lit framelines, etc, makes the M9 a camera to be desired and used for many years to come.
Avotius
Some guy
I loved my M6TTL, sold it and got and M8 which I didnt like so much. Now with the M9 I feel happy again. It really is a good package. My only regret is the money, that stupid thought that if I sold that thing over there I would have 5000 bucks in cash on hand. A nasty regret.
IEDEI
Well-known
I made a leap to an M8.1 (M8u) last month and couldn't be happier. I did not want to spend $5k+ on a camera body and felt the M9 was just too expensive for me. I got a sweet deal locally on an M8 with M8.2 upgrades (sapphire screen, new framelines, quieter shutter) and the camera is really bringing out creativity in me. I don't think you can go wrong with and M8 or M9: but if you're budget is smaller and you shoot a lot of B&W---the M8 is the better buy for the price (better B&W than the M9 as well).
there are quirks like the crop factor and adjusting to it----but it's not an issue after getting used to it for a day. the simplicity of these digital Ms is beautiful....as well as the construction and the feeling of walking around with one in your hands. Definitely make the jump....choosing which one depends mainly on your budget.
there are quirks like the crop factor and adjusting to it----but it's not an issue after getting used to it for a day. the simplicity of these digital Ms is beautiful....as well as the construction and the feeling of walking around with one in your hands. Definitely make the jump....choosing which one depends mainly on your budget.
finguanzo
Well-known
If you didnt know how to properly use the M7, it will be the same with the M9, pretty much the same, besides it being digital..
crispy12
Well-known
My thoughts exactly. They are really very similar in usage. Identical, even. Perhaps you can get hold of one to trial for a week? Or consider getting a film rangefinder in the meanwhile?
Film cameras and lenses are quite stable in prices so you would not lose money, but you definitely would (at least a little) if you were to purchase the M9.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
If you buy a camera with an eye to what you'll be replacing it with, you're wasting your time and money from the outset. You'll never be satisfied with it. Similarly, what a camera costs is only important at two times: when you're buying it and when you're selling it. If what your camera's price is is always on your mind, again you're wasting your time and money from the outset, you're thinking of the wrong things. Buy an expensive camera because you want what it can do, not because of what it might be worth when you sell it.
Buy any camera because of what it specifically is and what it can produce, and how that relates to the photographs you want to make. An M9 is a wonderful rangefinder camera, it can produce superb photographs within the limitations of its technology. It is well made and can last a long time. Will it be the right tool for you to make the photographs you envision? That's what matters. I wonder about that because the M9 is more akin to the M7 which didn't gel for you than to any SLR or TTL electronic camera.
Whatever else might come along from Leica is irrelevant—to be happy with an M9 is not affected by the fact that a newer camera with more capabilities is coming along unless what you really want is a bigger spec sheet, or have needs that the M9 cannot fulfill. In the latter event, well, you already know what the M9 will be succeeded by; if that's what you really want, be patient and buy one of those when they are available.
I'm very pleased with my M9 and have barely scratched the surface of what it can do in nine months use. It is a wonderful camera to shoot with, for me, and produces excellent photos. While the new M (and M Monochrom) have great appeal to me for their different/expanded features and capability, I don't feel any twinge that my M9 isn't the latest anymore. Nor will I rush to empty my bank account just so I can say I own an M or MM, although I might buy one or the other at some point. I could work with the M9 for years to come and not feel that I was behind the eight ball.
Buy any camera because of what it specifically is and what it can produce, and how that relates to the photographs you want to make. An M9 is a wonderful rangefinder camera, it can produce superb photographs within the limitations of its technology. It is well made and can last a long time. Will it be the right tool for you to make the photographs you envision? That's what matters. I wonder about that because the M9 is more akin to the M7 which didn't gel for you than to any SLR or TTL electronic camera.
Whatever else might come along from Leica is irrelevant—to be happy with an M9 is not affected by the fact that a newer camera with more capabilities is coming along unless what you really want is a bigger spec sheet, or have needs that the M9 cannot fulfill. In the latter event, well, you already know what the M9 will be succeeded by; if that's what you really want, be patient and buy one of those when they are available.
I'm very pleased with my M9 and have barely scratched the surface of what it can do in nine months use. It is a wonderful camera to shoot with, for me, and produces excellent photos. While the new M (and M Monochrom) have great appeal to me for their different/expanded features and capability, I don't feel any twinge that my M9 isn't the latest anymore. Nor will I rush to empty my bank account just so I can say I own an M or MM, although I might buy one or the other at some point. I could work with the M9 for years to come and not feel that I was behind the eight ball.
lencap
Established
Thanks to all for the replies - much appreciated.
The comments about my M7 experience are accurate and valid - I appreciate them and they help me clarify my thoughts.
Part of the "problem" with the M7 was that as I was learning about composition with a rangefinder I found that the delay between taking the photo and seeing it after it was developed was too long for me to remember what I saw in the rangefinder when I composed the shot. That delay made it hard for me to "learn" the camera. A digital Leica will make that feedback loop near instantaneous, making the "learning curve" much more manageable, at least I believe it will.
It was my frustration that moved me away from the M7, as well as the cost of lenses. In retrospect I should have worked with a coach, or Leica expert, to get the training I needed right from the start, using one lens and learning the craft of photography that Leica has to offer. I won't make that mistake again - that's why I will start with a single 50mm lens.
Your comments are very helpful and clarifying. Thanks to all.
The comments about my M7 experience are accurate and valid - I appreciate them and they help me clarify my thoughts.
Part of the "problem" with the M7 was that as I was learning about composition with a rangefinder I found that the delay between taking the photo and seeing it after it was developed was too long for me to remember what I saw in the rangefinder when I composed the shot. That delay made it hard for me to "learn" the camera. A digital Leica will make that feedback loop near instantaneous, making the "learning curve" much more manageable, at least I believe it will.
It was my frustration that moved me away from the M7, as well as the cost of lenses. In retrospect I should have worked with a coach, or Leica expert, to get the training I needed right from the start, using one lens and learning the craft of photography that Leica has to offer. I won't make that mistake again - that's why I will start with a single 50mm lens.
Your comments are very helpful and clarifying. Thanks to all.
My biggest mistake ever.
Lss
Well-known
Then my advice is to not get a Leica M9. It's pretty much a digital M7.
Fraser
Well-known
Why so?
I really like my M9 bought one after having an M8 for a few months liked that so much decided M9 was for me. Saying that rangefinders were not a new thing to me. But maybe the reason I like the M9 so much is because its so different than my work DSLR (I do sometimes use M9 for work) and its nice to have a compact full frame camera that has superb lenses and great image quality (I use my up to 1600iso no probs). Its a lot of money to spend on a camera if you are not sure and rangefinder photography is not for everyone. Why not buy a used M8 with a used 35mm summicron you could pick that up easy enough for £2500, and if its not for you sell it.
Richard G
Veteran
It's as Godfrey says. Indeed the two new ones offer things that are sufficiently different that they still leave me happy with my M9-P which I've had for six months. The M2 in my Avatar I still consider current. It's 54 years old and I've had it for 36 years.
leicapixie
Well-known
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124720
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124720
Rangefinders are not for everybody! The M9 or any digital M is the same as the M7! All the reasons you give show your an avid reader of Leica publicity and lore. The M system is wonderful if enjoyed. I adore using RF since the 50's my own Leica since '66. I used SLR way more professionally. Easier to work with many different lenses, not requiring bonuses from the banksters, cartels and other dubious folks! The price of Leica always expensive. A pro has to weigh actual investment to costs and profit and loss.
I was a regular photojournalist, making a small living. The real big money earners usually use a large format on a tripod or medium format..I know all the advertising to the contrary, but Pinocchio is alive and well on Madison Avenue and similar addresses.
Rent an M again, spend money on film and processing OR rent a digital M if possible. Use it on a theme for a few days. Use no other camera. Go back and shoot with any SLR/DSLR. Then you will know..
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124720
Rangefinders are not for everybody! The M9 or any digital M is the same as the M7! All the reasons you give show your an avid reader of Leica publicity and lore. The M system is wonderful if enjoyed. I adore using RF since the 50's my own Leica since '66. I used SLR way more professionally. Easier to work with many different lenses, not requiring bonuses from the banksters, cartels and other dubious folks! The price of Leica always expensive. A pro has to weigh actual investment to costs and profit and loss.
I was a regular photojournalist, making a small living. The real big money earners usually use a large format on a tripod or medium format..I know all the advertising to the contrary, but Pinocchio is alive and well on Madison Avenue and similar addresses.
Rent an M again, spend money on film and processing OR rent a digital M if possible. Use it on a theme for a few days. Use no other camera. Go back and shoot with any SLR/DSLR. Then you will know..
sepiareverb
genius and moron
I don;t see myself upgrading till I have to. I like the M9 fine. I have two.
crispy12
Well-known
I have to disagree with the reasoning here. Photography principles are the same regardless of camera. I hope you don't think that owning a Leica will make you a better photographer ever, because it won't. In fact you can do exactly what you describe here with any digital camera, even to an extreme a camera phone.
A rangefinder is not very flexible as a general camera and there are many scenarios where a DSLR would be better, seems like an unwise purchase unless you really know what and why you want, especially since its a considerable expense for you.
mugent
Well-known
Almost any camera will give you what you need. You need to decide if the thousands of bucks for an M9 is worth it for what you *want*.
Leica is a camera bought by the heart, not the head, it's not a bad thing, but if you try to logically justify one, you'll fail. If you want it enough, buy it, if not, don't.
I used to own an m6, but couldn't justify the money invested, still miss it sometimes though, even if if a camera for a 10th of the price will do just as good a job.
Leica is a camera bought by the heart, not the head, it's not a bad thing, but if you try to logically justify one, you'll fail. If you want it enough, buy it, if not, don't.
I used to own an m6, but couldn't justify the money invested, still miss it sometimes though, even if if a camera for a 10th of the price will do just as good a job.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No regrets here. But then, I've been using Leicas for over 40 years.
If the lack of digital feedback was all that worried you, then fine, get an M9. If you didn't like the handling/ergonomics/viewfinder, on the other hand, don't buy one.
Cheers,
R.
If the lack of digital feedback was all that worried you, then fine, get an M9. If you didn't like the handling/ergonomics/viewfinder, on the other hand, don't buy one.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
raid
Dad Photographer
I worry sometimes that I get carried away with equipment, and I want to dedicate more efforts to my photography. I bought a used M9, and this is the camera that I am planning to enjoy. There are no regrets for me.