Anyone else find this dishonest??

[Timmyjoe]

Like a lot of us here, I get the occasional GAS and happen to be a nut about old film cameras. So I cruise the auction site as well as numerous classifieds. I've had pretty good luck with the auction site, but have also gotten old cameras that looked beautiful on the outside but were rusted hunks on the inside. So I think it's important that the buyer will stand behind an item they sell.

Looking at an old camera I'd like to buy from the auction site and in reading through the return policy, this is what you are presented with:

Looks good, two ways that the buyer is protected.

The first way is the:
14 days money back, buyer pays return shipping. which I find completely reasonable. So everything looks fine, 14 day money back, cool. But then if you click on the See details link, in fine print it says if anywhere on the auction it has the words "As-Is", this return policy doesn't apply. And way down at the bottom of this auction, past the point where most people would ever read, after multiple bullet points on what great condition the camera is in, in fine print, it has the words "As-Is".

So I figure, Oh well, at least there is the second protection, boldly listed as:
eBay MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. So I figure great, I'm still protected. But again, if you click on the See details link, and again in fine print, it says that the Money Back Guarantee only applies to auctions that have the words "hassle-free returns" in the listing. Which this auction did not have.

So the appearance of buyer protection, at least on this auction, is a complete scam.

Best,
-Tim

 

[photomoof]

This has been in effect for some time now. Why I refuse to sell on eBay.

Even if a seller's return policy says that they don't accept returns, you can still open a return request. Here are your options:

1) If your item is damaged, or doesn't match the listing description, you're covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.

2) If you've just changed your mind or made a mistake, you can still request a return, but please be aware that the seller isn't obliged to accept your return.

There is basically no such thing as no returns, since all a buyer has to do is damage an item. And they do it all the time.

 

[Bille]

So the appearance of buyer protection, at least on this auction, is a complete scam.

PayPal buyer protection does apply anyway. No need to worry about eBay´s obscure "rules".

 

[Timmyjoe]

1) If your item is damaged, or doesn't match the listing description, you're covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.

Not according to the eBay Money Back Guarantee details. It is very specific as to what the auction needs to have in the listing. If it doesn't have those specific things(which this auction didn't), eBay clearly states that the Guarantee does not apply.

I have not looked into the PayPal dispute details, maybe that still protects you. Especially now that PayPal and eBay are separate companies again.

 

[photomoof]

Not according to the eBay Money Back Guarantee details. It is very specific as to what the auction needs to have in the listing. If it doesn't have those specific things(which this auction didn't), eBay clearly states that the Guarantee does not apply.

The point is a buyer can return anything no matter how you are reading the rules.

But you are right, the following is dependent on honesty of the buyer. But a buyer can make anything not match. Sellers MUST accept returns.

If your item is damaged, or doesn't match the listing description, you're covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.

 

[Timmyjoe]

I made a mistake about the eBay Money Back Guarantee policy. When you look at the details of the policy, I got derailed where it listed items covered by the "hassle-free returns" policy, which is actually a subset of the eBay Money Back Guarantee policy. The "hassle-free return" subset policy of the eBay Money Back Guarantee policy is the one that is restricted to only auctions that have "hassle-free returns" in the auction listing. The overall eBay Money Back Guarantee does seem to cover most auctions (except the ones listed for business property and the like).

So there is still some protection from an unscrupulous seller. And I can see how some unscrupulous buyers could take advantage of the system.

PS: I do still find it dishonest that the seller lists 14 days money back, buyer pays return shipping for the Return policy for the auction, then when you click on the See Details link, it says it doesn't apply to this auction. So why are they listing it as the Return policy, if it doesn't apply.

 

[colyn]

Sellers MUST accept returns.

Not always....

2 months ago I sold a camera. The buyer was happy till a month ago when he contacted me asking for a refund. When I asked him why he stated he wanted to buy another camera and needed the money. I refused at which time he filed a complaint against me. I called eBay and explained the reason he wanted his money back and then gave eBay permission to access my inbox which proved my claim.

eBay found in my favor..

 

[JHutchins]

Without giving legal advice and without seeing the actual text behind the "see details" section, I think maybe some of the confusion on what is being said here can be cleared up with a detour through Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. What the UCC effectively says is that in a transaction subject to the UCC Article 2 (and not all transactions on ebay are so don't assume yours is) there are two kinds of warranties:

Express warranties
Implied warranties

An "express warranty" is something that purports to be a warranty (all that text on the page that says "warranty" stuck in the camera box when you buy it for example) but *also* the *description* of the item if that description is part of the basis for the bargain.

Implied warranties are assumptions you might make about what you're getting that aren't actually explicitly stated and the UCC imputes into every contract for sale of goods that is subject to it certain implied warranties including a warranty that it is merchantable and fit for the purposes for which such goods are normally used.

Implied warranties can be disclaimed by language like "as is". Express warranties can not.

My suspicion, again, without reading details, is that this can be read to be implementing a regime something like Article 2's, i.e:


If the description is inaccurate, it can be returned
If the description is not inaccurate, but you don't like it or it doesn't work the way you expected it to, it can also be returned *unless* the auction says that the goods are being sold "as is"

 

[photomoof]

Not always....

2 months ago I sold a camera. The buyer was happy till a month ago when he contacted me asking for a refund. When I asked him why he stated he wanted to buy another camera and needed the money. I refused at which time he filed a complaint against me. I called eBay and explained the reason he wanted his money back and then gave eBay permission to access my inbox which proved my claim.

eBay found in my favor..

BUT, he could have shown a photo of the damaged _______ (fill in the blank with any area not covered in your photos) and they would have forced a return.

Just not wanting is in fact not covered. You do point out a good reason for NEVER using your private mail.

When I do sell on ebay I state that the camera is only a collectible, as far as I know it does not work and will need service, and should be considered a parts camera or display camera only. This is in fact true, since I have no way to know anything about a camera's insides.

 

[Ranchu]

It is dishonest. The seller is being deceptive.

 

[aperture64]

It's a mistake and likely rolled over from a default setting of a previous listing. When creating the auction, there are two options. To allow returns or "no returns accepted." I have caught the same conflict with the policy and item description when listing my own items. You could always contact the seller to clarify.

I have also bought items that were sold as-is and returned them under the PayPal protection. The items were not as described.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

eBay generally supports the buyer, to make buying "safe." They've helped me a couple of times with unreasonable sellers.

 

[Ranchu]

It's a mistake and likely rolled over from a default setting of a previous listing.

The way to determine it, is if the rest of the seller's listings are the same. What's the good word, Tim??

 

[colyn]

BUT, he could have shown a photo of the damaged _______ (fill in the blank with any area not covered in your photos) and they would have forced a return.

I doubt that would have helped him since he clearly stated the camera was fine but he just wanted his money back so he could buy another..

Wanting your money back to buy another is not grounds for a refund according to the eBay rep I talked to.

 

[splitimageview]

He now knows what not to say, the next time he wants a return.

 

[photomoof]

I doubt that would have helped him since he clearly stated the camera was fine but he just wanted his money back so he could buy another..

Wanting your money back to buy another is not grounds for a refund according to the eBay rep I talked to.

I was thinking hypothetical -- not that specific buyer.

The seller may not mean anything other than the camera has no warranty by saying "As Is," but is willing to take it back if the buyer does not want it.

All that is required is to get confirmation of that intent by eBay email before the bid is made. Without it, I would not bid.

 

[Ranchu]

He now knows what not to say, the next time he wants a return.

Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump. - W.C. Fields

 

[jsrockit]

There is basically no such thing as no returns, since all a buyer has to do is damage an item. And they do it all the time.

What makes you think this happens "all the time?" I've sold thousands of items on eBay over a 18 year period and have never had someone do this to me. My Dad has sold thousands as well with no such issue.

 

[photomoof]

What makes you think this happens "all the time?" I've sold thousands of items on eBay over a 18 year period and have never had someone do this to me. My Dad has sold thousands as well with no such issue.

Well "all the time" is rather one of those internet complaint kind of things. Of course thousands of sales go well, but the ones that don't are posted. So sure my feelings are probably skewed.

However receiving items back in worse condition than when they were sent out, is something I really only hear about only from dealers. And given the state of packing I receive eBay items in, it is no surprise. A lot of stuff probably is arriving broken. I got some collectible Steak 'n Shake glasses the other day, just thrown in a tiny box. Because they were commercial grade restaurant glass somehow they made it.

Buyers break cameras, and return them. Nothing new actually, I have personally seen a $2000 camera sent -- loose -- in a shoe box, 10 years ago. Dealers have little redress when they receive a camera back broken. Used dealer friends just tell me they figure in a 3~5% rate of disaster. Used equipment is sold at a generous markup, so it works for them. Not so much for the small seller.

When I used to sell at flea markets, I had folks walk up to my table and break a camera right in front of me. It was not uncommon to have guys wind and release a shutter, while I tried to pry it from their hands.

 

[jsrockit]

However receiving items back in worse condition than when they were sent out, is something I really only hear about only from dealers.

I can understand how that would happen.