roscoetuff
Well-known
So running through the Developer's Cookbook, I ran across the recommendation that if you double the volume of fluid in the tank by using a two-reel tank, putting film on one reel and making the 2nd simply a spacer, but then filling the tank for development... this is supposed to deliver excellent negatives. I think Chris Crawford also recommends this in one of his videos... and there's a certain sense to it.
So, ...I've given it a whirl. And the negatives were in fact... to my eye... great. And they're smoother and more even. But without going about this in a scientific way to determine whether this is due to the change in fluid volume relative to inches of film in the tank, or whether it's the upgrade in my agitation and tightening up of my routine I can't really say.
The downside is that this means I've only got half the number of reels in a tank... so that developing becomes something more of a chore, and much more time consuming.
So I'm wondering whether anyone else has adapted this approach, or whether the whole is in the eye of the beholder? Does your mileage vary here, or not?
So, ...I've given it a whirl. And the negatives were in fact... to my eye... great. And they're smoother and more even. But without going about this in a scientific way to determine whether this is due to the change in fluid volume relative to inches of film in the tank, or whether it's the upgrade in my agitation and tightening up of my routine I can't really say.
The downside is that this means I've only got half the number of reels in a tank... so that developing becomes something more of a chore, and much more time consuming.
So I'm wondering whether anyone else has adapted this approach, or whether the whole is in the eye of the beholder? Does your mileage vary here, or not?
jbielikowski
Jan Bielikowski
I have a 2 reel Kaiser tank, and with one reel I can use a clamp so there is no need for second empty reel. And some time ago I started to mix 1 liter of developer and fill the tank to the brim. I dunno if the negatives get better but they are always evenly developed, and with minimum amount developer sometimes I got funky results.
Frontman
Well-known
I use Jobo tanks, which are quite large. I have 4 tanks, each of which can be used with two reels for 35mm, or one reel for 120/220 film, or even 6 sheets of 4x5. I like the larger tanks because the temperature remains stable for a longer time than small tanks. My negatives always come out quite well.
kxl
Social Documentary
I have a Patterson 2-reel tank and I ALWAYS put in two reels AND fill up the tank.
The second reel is to make sure the first reel does not slide up and down the spindle, and filling up the tank makes sure the roll is completely submerged.
The second reel is to make sure the first reel does not slide up and down the spindle, and filling up the tank makes sure the roll is completely submerged.
Bill Clark
Veteran
With stand developing with Rodinal, I use 6ml stock to 600 ml of water for 35mm film.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
It takes a certain amount of stock developer to develop a roll. If the developer is undiluted stock, 8 ounces (250ml) is often recommended, and just right, for a 36 exposure roll. This would apply to D-76 and XTOL, for instance. But if diluting 1:1, then you still need 8 ounces of the stock developer. That means 16oz. (500ml) of the 1:1 diluted solution.. Many of us do use D-76 or other developers at 1:1, in which case using a 16oz tank is the thing to do.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
It depends on the developer. Some are too weak to do the full number of rolls a tank will hold.
Kodak says that D-76 used un-diluted can develop the full tank full of film, but when diluted 1+1, you should have double the developer (ie. one roll in a two roll tank).
My experience with Tmax Developer is that it is a very powerful developer and does not require doubling the developer quantity. Even when diluted 1+7 instead of the normal 1+4 dilution.
HC-110 should be fine with a full tank of rolls at the standard 1+31 dilution, but if you use higher dilutions, I would reduce the number of rolls you develop.
Rodinal 1+25 can develop a full tank of rolls, but I would double the developer volume for 1+50 and higher dilutions.
Kodak says that D-76 used un-diluted can develop the full tank full of film, but when diluted 1+1, you should have double the developer (ie. one roll in a two roll tank).
My experience with Tmax Developer is that it is a very powerful developer and does not require doubling the developer quantity. Even when diluted 1+7 instead of the normal 1+4 dilution.
HC-110 should be fine with a full tank of rolls at the standard 1+31 dilution, but if you use higher dilutions, I would reduce the number of rolls you develop.
Rodinal 1+25 can develop a full tank of rolls, but I would double the developer volume for 1+50 and higher dilutions.
x-ray
Veteran
Ok I can understand not having enough developing agent to run the number of square inches. I was going to say that I've run several thousand rolls and sheets in 3-1/2 gallon deep tanks and not observed and change due to volume. I have however seen a slight improvement due to seasoning the developer in a replenished line.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Want to say more about seasoning the developer? I've heard of it, but what is it that improves as the developer continues to be used? Why does it happen? How long does it go on before it declines? Do all developers improve with use? When might we prefer re-using/seasoning to the consistency benefits of the 1:1 one-shot approach?
x-ray
Veteran
In a replenished line byproducts from the film build up in the developer. Bromides, iodides and possibly chlorides come out of the film as a normal part of the process. Replenishing adds back the chemicals that are oxidized or depleted from the reduction / oxidation that occurs in processing. The conversion of silver halides into metallic silver causes oxidation of the MQ and a reduction of the silver halide to metallic silver.
To replenish you of course use replenisher not the developer itself like some people have done. Using fresh developer to replenish creates an excess of some of the components and not enough of others. It's a general practice to eplenish each time you run film as to the recommendations of the manufacturer based on the square inches of film processed. Generally if you're running a 3-1/2 gallon line you'll use no more than 3-1/2 gallons of replenisher during the life of the developer. When you reach that volume of replenishment you discard the developer and start again.
Seasoning makes tones slightly smoother. You might see a little shift in tonal scale. It's very subtle so I wouldn't run out and setup a dip and dunk line. Utilization needs to be pretty high for replenishing otherwise there's no real point. I have seen people replenish 1 gal D76 in small tanks and had a friend replenish 1 gal quantities of UFG and it worked. When I ran a lot of sheets and 120 I ran a 3-1/2 gallon line of HC-110 and had really good luck but I often ran 100 sheets or more a week and sometimes that much in a day. When I apprenticed in a commercial studio in the early 70's we replenished a DK-50 line and another place I worked we replenished a D76 line. It all worked very well. The difference wasn't enough to keep me from going with an automated one shot processor later though. I eventually went to a fully automated commercial Colenta rotary processor. It's so much easier and efficient.
roscoetuff
Well-known
Altogether edifying. Thanks!
Chris: I think that I must have watched your PMK video where with the typical high dilution (1:1:100) it must be that's where I first heard of it... and didn't know what to make of it. Seeing the same idea in the Darkroom Cookbook clicked, but obviously not completely. Thanks for filling in the details.
X-Ray: Thank you for explaining replenished / seasoned developer. Sounds like a byproduct possible in a higher volume than our more typical 1 tank runs.
So I guess I'm beginning to see the way folks yield to the siren song of rotary processing. Thanks! All for now.
Chris: I think that I must have watched your PMK video where with the typical high dilution (1:1:100) it must be that's where I first heard of it... and didn't know what to make of it. Seeing the same idea in the Darkroom Cookbook clicked, but obviously not completely. Thanks for filling in the details.
X-Ray: Thank you for explaining replenished / seasoned developer. Sounds like a byproduct possible in a higher volume than our more typical 1 tank runs.
So I guess I'm beginning to see the way folks yield to the siren song of rotary processing. Thanks! All for now.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
Actually, here is what Kodak says with respect to D76 diluted 1:1:
"You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches) in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL (one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one 135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time by 10 percent (see the following tables)."
So Kodak really says use double to solution or extend development time by 10 percent.
Back in the day when I was using Tri-X and D76, I diluted it 1:1 for slightly better acutance, and followed the time/temperature chart. I later moved on to HC110 1:31. I now shoot Ilford Delta 100/400 and process in Ilford DDX, or occasionally Tri-X in Rodinal for effect. I have always used developers one-shot for consistency.
ACullen
Well-known
I've never noticed this to an issue. I'm still using the same Paterson 3 reel tank I've had for decades. 300ml / 500ml per film for 35mm/120 respectively. I am not clear what advantages a rotary processor would bring.
ACullen
Well-known
Interestingly reading Ilfords ID11 data sheet, there is no mention (unless I missed it) of increasing developement time or volume when using 1+1 etc.
Could ID11 simply be more active or is 10% extra development too small to make a material difference.? I ask as I'll need to get D76 or ID11 (having previously used neither in the past 40 years!) to process my first rolls of Ferrania P30.
Could ID11 simply be more active or is 10% extra development too small to make a material difference.? I ask as I'll need to get D76 or ID11 (having previously used neither in the past 40 years!) to process my first rolls of Ferrania P30.
I've only used D-76 once or twice because I was given some. Otherwise it is usually Ilford's almost identical alternative ID-11 and it's almost always 1 + 3 dilution for films that stipulate that concentration.
I use slightly more developer than Paterson advise for covering their reels, but not much more (say 1200ml for 2 x 120 reels, as opposed to their suggested 1000ml). Similar adjustments for 35mm. Occasionally, if I'm processing enough rolls that need the same time/dilution, I'll even load 2 x 120 rolls per reel (Ie. 4 x 120 rolls with 250ml of ID-11 in total). I can't say I have ever had any problems with inadequate or uneven development. I do 10 seconds inversion per minute with about a minute continual inversion at the beginning. Always 20C. It's worked for me every time for Pan F, Delta 100, FP4+, Acros, Tri-X, TMAX 100 and HP5+ among others.
One thing I appreciate about the above-mentioned Ilford films is that with the exception of Pan F+ they can all go through at 20 minutes 1+3 (as can Tri-X, or perhaps 19 minutes, which, with 1 + 3 is close enough to 20), so, when I'm processing films for other people as well as myself, it helps keep the number of different tanks in use to a minimum.
Cheers
Brett
I use slightly more developer than Paterson advise for covering their reels, but not much more (say 1200ml for 2 x 120 reels, as opposed to their suggested 1000ml). Similar adjustments for 35mm. Occasionally, if I'm processing enough rolls that need the same time/dilution, I'll even load 2 x 120 rolls per reel (Ie. 4 x 120 rolls with 250ml of ID-11 in total). I can't say I have ever had any problems with inadequate or uneven development. I do 10 seconds inversion per minute with about a minute continual inversion at the beginning. Always 20C. It's worked for me every time for Pan F, Delta 100, FP4+, Acros, Tri-X, TMAX 100 and HP5+ among others.
One thing I appreciate about the above-mentioned Ilford films is that with the exception of Pan F+ they can all go through at 20 minutes 1+3 (as can Tri-X, or perhaps 19 minutes, which, with 1 + 3 is close enough to 20), so, when I'm processing films for other people as well as myself, it helps keep the number of different tanks in use to a minimum.
Cheers
Brett
Bill Clark
Veteran
Agree. Even when I use stock solution, such as D-76, Mic-X I only use it once.
Actually, they do. It's in the tables. They specify times for stock solution, and, depending on the film, 1 + 1 and 1+ 3 as well, increasing in time in each case, according to the type of film.
Cheers
Brett
I should clarify that if no time is mentioned for 1 + 1 or 1 + 3 for a particular film then they do not advise those dilutions (Eg Delta 3200). Recommended dilutions (if any) vary from film to film, and indeed, also depending on Exposure Index, in many cases.
Cheers
Brett
Cheers
Brett
Pioneer
Veteran
I typically follow the manufacturer's datasheet pretty closely. If they specify a specific amount of developer for a certain number of square inches then I make sure I have that much developer. Sometimes that can mean that I only can develop one reel of film in a two reel tank.
Usually I use time, temperature and/or agitation as a way to vary my development depending on what I am looking for from a given roll or sheet.
Once I know that I have the correct amount of developer to fully develop the film I don't get too picky about the amount I pour into the tank beyond ensuring the reel(s) are completely covered.
Chris surprised me a little regarding how much developer he recommends depending on the dilution of Rodinal you use. It would be interesting to know the basis for that recommendation since Adox specifically says the 5 ml of developer is sufficient to develop a roll of film.
Over the years I have developed a healthy respect for the accuracy of the information provided by the manufacturer's in their datasheets. I can't always say the same for the information I read here, on the internet, in magazines, or even in books.
I doubt that it hurts to fill up the tank completely or to develop only one roll of film in a two roll tank. However I can't see where doing so would result in consistently better results. There is at least one circumstance in my own experience where I am certain that it would be far more costly. I shoot quite a bit of Adox CMS 20 and the developer I use is fairly expensive for small amounts. Doubling the volume would increase the cost quite a bit.
Usually I use time, temperature and/or agitation as a way to vary my development depending on what I am looking for from a given roll or sheet.
Once I know that I have the correct amount of developer to fully develop the film I don't get too picky about the amount I pour into the tank beyond ensuring the reel(s) are completely covered.
Chris surprised me a little regarding how much developer he recommends depending on the dilution of Rodinal you use. It would be interesting to know the basis for that recommendation since Adox specifically says the 5 ml of developer is sufficient to develop a roll of film.
Over the years I have developed a healthy respect for the accuracy of the information provided by the manufacturer's in their datasheets. I can't always say the same for the information I read here, on the internet, in magazines, or even in books.
I doubt that it hurts to fill up the tank completely or to develop only one roll of film in a two roll tank. However I can't see where doing so would result in consistently better results. There is at least one circumstance in my own experience where I am certain that it would be far more costly. I shoot quite a bit of Adox CMS 20 and the developer I use is fairly expensive for small amounts. Doubling the volume would increase the cost quite a bit.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Here is my practical experience. No reason to make it double. Read what is suggested for developer amount on developing tank bottom. They have it for one and two 135 film rolls. Add 100 ml on top. Do not add more developer. It works for even and good developing.