brians
Film Enthusiast
I keep hearing different methods of agitation. I'm sure this has been addressed several times, but to the B&W newbie, it rings a little different. I am using a JOBO series tank. Plus-X 125 and D76 was the combination I used for developing.
I understand that agitation is crucial in tonality as well as even development of the film's surface. Unfortunately, I've come to the point where I'm getting frustrated with the results I get.
This is my current developing habit:
1. Load film
2. Give 4-5 inversions for the first 30 seconds of development.
3. Invert tank every 30 seconds for 6 seconds. (Continue until 15 seconds within dev time)
4. Pour out devper and pour in fixer and repeat the process.
This has not been a problem with color film, but with B&W, I see that my results keep coming out with sprocket holes :bang: :bang: :bang: . Attached are the examples from my last roll. These were shot with a Zenit B with a 29mm Pentacon lens.
Your suggestions and advice would be most helpful. Thank you
I understand that agitation is crucial in tonality as well as even development of the film's surface. Unfortunately, I've come to the point where I'm getting frustrated with the results I get.
This is my current developing habit:
1. Load film
2. Give 4-5 inversions for the first 30 seconds of development.
3. Invert tank every 30 seconds for 6 seconds. (Continue until 15 seconds within dev time)
4. Pour out devper and pour in fixer and repeat the process.
This has not been a problem with color film, but with B&W, I see that my results keep coming out with sprocket holes :bang: :bang: :bang: . Attached are the examples from my last roll. These were shot with a Zenit B with a 29mm Pentacon lens.
Your suggestions and advice would be most helpful. Thank you
Last edited:
the_other_dirk
Member
Hi Brian,
that looks like "overenthusiastic" agitation to me. Try agitating a bit less. I only agitate for a few seconds each minute (2 or 3 slow inversions of the tank, this takes about 4 or 5 seconds).
FWIW, I also use D76 (1:1 dil), but TriX, not PlusX.
dirk
that looks like "overenthusiastic" agitation to me. Try agitating a bit less. I only agitate for a few seconds each minute (2 or 3 slow inversions of the tank, this takes about 4 or 5 seconds).
FWIW, I also use D76 (1:1 dil), but TriX, not PlusX.
dirk
N
Nick R.
Guest
I think your agitation times are fine. It's what I use. Maybe your method of agitation is incorrect. As you grasp the tank from the top, try rolling your wrist over and back in one continuous motion in a manner which both turns the tank over and rotates it. How's the liquid level in the tank? Follow the tank maker's recommendation. I'm not familiar with the Jobo.
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
brian, that sounds like overagitation.
If possible try agitating only 1/minute, the dev time will not change and only invert once.
I prefer the twirling/toroidal agitation that can be seen somewhere else
I reckon it used to be in the Paterson tank instructions
If possible try agitating only 1/minute, the dev time will not change and only invert once.
I prefer the twirling/toroidal agitation that can be seen somewhere else
I reckon it used to be in the Paterson tank instructions
M
mojojones
Guest
I'm not familiar with the JOBO tank but here are a couple things to try. Make sure the reel is not moving in the tank. If it is sliding up and down as you agitate it could cause the developer to "jet" thru the sprocket holes. Try rotating the tank a quarter turn each inversion. The side of the tank that's on the outside of the arc when you invert always gets greater force so this helps equalize agitation. Personally I agitate in minute intervals which "buffers" the development and gives a more even tonality (but does compress the highlights some). And lastly, make sure you are not developing too warm or too short; this could also cause uneven development.
Good Luck,
John
Good Luck,
John
Andrew Touchon
Well-known
Brian
You might want to give this a try. Small-Tank Processing (8- or 16-ounce tank)
With small single- or double-reel tanks, drop the loaded film reel into the developer and attach the top to the tank. Firmly tap the tank on the top of the work surface to dislodge any air bubbles. Provide initial agitation of 5 to 7 inversion cycles in 5 seconds; i.e., extend your arm and vigorously twist your wrist 180 degrees.
Then repeat this agitation procedure at 30-second intervals for the rest of the development time.
Above info is from the Kodak website.
You might want to give this a try. Small-Tank Processing (8- or 16-ounce tank)
With small single- or double-reel tanks, drop the loaded film reel into the developer and attach the top to the tank. Firmly tap the tank on the top of the work surface to dislodge any air bubbles. Provide initial agitation of 5 to 7 inversion cycles in 5 seconds; i.e., extend your arm and vigorously twist your wrist 180 degrees.
Then repeat this agitation procedure at 30-second intervals for the rest of the development time.
Above info is from the Kodak website.
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
Mojo has a great point.
Wrap a rubber band several times in the center post of the tank (where the spiral goes) to prevent it from moving up and down.
Wrap a rubber band several times in the center post of the tank (where the spiral goes) to prevent it from moving up and down.
the_other_dirk
Member
Andrew Touchon said:
It's the "vigorously" that's troubling me... you're not trying to make a milkshake, you're just trying to get fresh developer to the film's surface. A few gentle inversions of the tank (be it once a minute or once every 30 secs) will suffice to do this.
the_other_dirk
Member
titrisol said:
he sure does. I also use JOBO tanks, but the reels don't move inside my tanks -- maybe they do in Brian's tanks though and then the rubber band trick should be useful
dirk
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Also make sure your solutions are fresh. If your developer is getting weak, you'll see marks around the sprocket holes because those areas get slightly more developer exchange during agitation.
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Someone said once that you can't overagitate, but you can underagitate. That's not entirely true in my experience - if you're too violent you can get the results here. But you can be too gentle. In the latter case, you don't break up the flow sufficiently and you get unevent development.
So I have two responses. First of all, compared to what I do, you seem to be agitating _very_ slowly. I agitate as per the recommendations from A&T in the FDC:
Right hand on top, left hand on bottom. Invert tank towards the right. Rotate right hand away from body as you invert, then return to vertical. Do it again, but rotate right hand _towards_ the body. So you go one way, then the other.
It takes almost exactly seconds for each inversion, so I get 5 inversions during the 10s/minute that I agitate. It also means I get 15 inversions during the initial 30s after I pour in the developer. You're citing 4-5. That's a pretty big difference. So it does not seem like you are agitating too violently, unless you're doing 4-5 really violent turns followed by, say, 5 seconds in between. But that doesn't make sense.
My method has solved uneven development problems I had with 120 film using 5s/30s, which is what I was originally taught in class, as well as the same sprocket problems with 35mm.
However, your scans do look like surge marks. They are lighter so you're looking at increased flow through the sprockets. Not sure what to tell you there.
Perhaps some more insight as to your agitation speed?
allan
So I have two responses. First of all, compared to what I do, you seem to be agitating _very_ slowly. I agitate as per the recommendations from A&T in the FDC:
Right hand on top, left hand on bottom. Invert tank towards the right. Rotate right hand away from body as you invert, then return to vertical. Do it again, but rotate right hand _towards_ the body. So you go one way, then the other.
It takes almost exactly seconds for each inversion, so I get 5 inversions during the 10s/minute that I agitate. It also means I get 15 inversions during the initial 30s after I pour in the developer. You're citing 4-5. That's a pretty big difference. So it does not seem like you are agitating too violently, unless you're doing 4-5 really violent turns followed by, say, 5 seconds in between. But that doesn't make sense.
My method has solved uneven development problems I had with 120 film using 5s/30s, which is what I was originally taught in class, as well as the same sprocket problems with 35mm.
However, your scans do look like surge marks. They are lighter so you're looking at increased flow through the sprockets. Not sure what to tell you there.
Perhaps some more insight as to your agitation speed?
allan
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
Make suer you've enough solution in the tank as well. You didn't specify the size of the tank and the amount of solution you used (or the number of rolls you were processing). Don't be stingy on developer. If it's a two-reel tank and you're processing one roll, fill it up. The reel movement is another good suggestion, espceially if you have a two-reel tank with one reel in it. If that's the case, I would put another blank reel in there, and again fill it up.
.
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brians
Film Enthusiast
Wow, thanks a lot. I believe I may have been a bit violent. They were very 'sharp' inversions rather than gentle ones. Yes, my JOBO tank is a 2-35mm reel plastic tank. I was only using one reel and older developer (definitely a factor). If it is insufficient agitation, I am confused why it would only show up near the sprocket holes rather than the surface of the film.
It doesn't seem too much that the film is loose on the reels. I have not done the quarter turn, but I will keep that in mind.
Also, I'm a poor college student, and I'm wondering where I can get some cheap developer and fixer. If you've any recommendations or any extra developer lying around the darkroom, I would be pleased to hear from you or buy it off of you.
If you've anymore input, I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks!
It doesn't seem too much that the film is loose on the reels. I have not done the quarter turn, but I will keep that in mind.
Also, I'm a poor college student, and I'm wondering where I can get some cheap developer and fixer. If you've any recommendations or any extra developer lying around the darkroom, I would be pleased to hear from you or buy it off of you.
If you've anymore input, I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks!
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Brian,
I would go for several steady inversions, at a quick but not violent speed. As I said, my inversion takes 2 seconds. That seems like a good way to describe how long it should take.
As for cost...first, be careful of being penny wise and pound foolish, as Anchell & Troop are wont to say. So fill up your double reel tank even if you're doing one roll.
I'm not sure what the cheapest developer right now is. I would've said Rodinal since you can dilute it to such high dilutions but their prices have gone up since Agfa went under. A 500ml bottle of Rodinal at 1+50 should be...25 liters of developer. A 2 reel paterson tank takes a bit more than half a liter, so you're in the range of 40 or so tank fulls, or a 40-80 rolls depending on how many you put in the tank. So even if you pay $20 for the bottle it's still pretty cheap.
If you really want to go cheap consider making up the tylenol rodinal or caffenol.
allan
I would go for several steady inversions, at a quick but not violent speed. As I said, my inversion takes 2 seconds. That seems like a good way to describe how long it should take.
As for cost...first, be careful of being penny wise and pound foolish, as Anchell & Troop are wont to say. So fill up your double reel tank even if you're doing one roll.
I'm not sure what the cheapest developer right now is. I would've said Rodinal since you can dilute it to such high dilutions but their prices have gone up since Agfa went under. A 500ml bottle of Rodinal at 1+50 should be...25 liters of developer. A 2 reel paterson tank takes a bit more than half a liter, so you're in the range of 40 or so tank fulls, or a 40-80 rolls depending on how many you put in the tank. So even if you pay $20 for the bottle it's still pretty cheap.
If you really want to go cheap consider making up the tylenol rodinal or caffenol.
allan
allthumbs
Established
Take it from a cheapskate: developer is cheap. My 473ml bottle of HC110 cost me $10. Minimum recommendation is 3.5ml per roll, so say 4ml per roll gives 118 rolls. That's less than ten cents a roll.
Diafine is even cheaper. The under-$15 quart size should do hundreds of rolls.
Plus, both these developers keep on the shelf for ages, so there's no waste.
I'm not sure if even homemade recipes come out to less.
Also, as long as we're pinching pennies, I strongly recommend stop bath to extend the life of your fixer. Water is cheaper than fixer.
Diafine is even cheaper. The under-$15 quart size should do hundreds of rolls.
Plus, both these developers keep on the shelf for ages, so there's no waste.
I'm not sure if even homemade recipes come out to less.
Also, as long as we're pinching pennies, I strongly recommend stop bath to extend the life of your fixer. Water is cheaper than fixer.
kaiyen
local man of mystery
I have not noticed a difference in fixer life once I went to a 3 bath water stop. I just fill and pour out 3 times.
FWIW.
allan
FWIW.
allan
brians
Film Enthusiast
I'm looking into the Acetaminophen (Tylenol) chemistry. Seems very interesting, but I'm afraid that I would probably need to keep some in reserve in case a headache arises! =)
Thanks kaiyen and allthumbs for the follow-up. I'll be posting some more questions later on.
Thanks kaiyen and allthumbs for the follow-up. I'll be posting some more questions later on.
N
Nick R.
Guest
Here's an example of reduced agitation in diafine.
allthumbs
Established
kaiyen said:
You mean compared to no stop bath? I'm saying any kind of stop bath is better than going from developer straight to fixer as indicated in brians' workflow.
kaiyen
local man of mystery
allthumbs said:
Doh! I missed that in the original post. Sorry. Your point is 10000% correct. You should always use _some_ kind of stop bath after dev and before fix.
I once read on PN from a guy that is pretty knowledgeable that one should not use a water stop when using stock developer because it causes sudden increase in grain from residual, now-diluted developer during the first water rinse. I find it utterly and literally incredible that the 5 seconds of the first wash would allow for any kind of grain-increasing development. Other than that, I have never seen anyone recommend not using a stop bath.
allan