B & W Film

[spenny]

After five years of messing around with DSLRs I've just returned to film via
Leica M6 and Bessa R3a. It's been a long time since I shot any 35mm B&W film and I understand that some scan well and others not so well. Would appreciate any advice
concerning best choices in this regard. The scanner I am using is the Nikon Super Coolscan 5000 ED. I am mostly interested in ISO 100 and 400 films although TMax 3200 looks interesting.

 

[GeneW]

I think the easiest stepping stone from digital to analog B&W is one of the C-41 films: Ilford XP2 or the Kodak one (used to be called T400CN). They're nominally rated at iso400 but they are much richer at iso200. They scan well, are very fine grained if not underexposed, and you can use ICE if your scanner has it.

The T-Grain films, T-Max 400 and 100, Delta 400 and 100, and (I think) Fuji Acros 100, all reputedly scan well if properly developed.

The traditional emulsions, Tri-X, Plus-X, HP5, FP4, APX100 (if you can find it), plus others, can scan well provided the negatives are not too dense.

The C-41 films are the only ones you can use ICE on.

This is just a high-level overview.

Gene

 

[spenny]

Thanks Gene I'll give them a try. To date I've been shooting Velvis 100 and Provia 100 and 400 and converting to B&W in Photoshop. The results are OK but somethong is missing

 

[kaiyen]

To be honest, I'm still debating on whether this page I made up is all that useful, but I have some scan examples along with my own EI and dev times at http://www.kaiyen.com/photos/pages/dev_chart.html

I think that just about any film can scan well - as with wet printing, it's getting to the right combination of EI, developer, dilution and time, plus a dash of correct use of scanner software.

allan

 

[pedro.m.reis]

Sorry about this newbie question .. what is ICE?

 

[CJP6008]

Traditional B&W films developed in PMK scan well, the stain masking the grain. It is also a very high acutance developer so the need to sharpen afterwards in photoshop is reduced. The late Barry Thornton's book "Elements of Transition" (available from www.monochromephotography.com) gives some very useful information on the subject of scanning negs for high quality B&W inkjet printing. Also check out "Vuescan", very inexpensive yet excellent scanner driver software from www.hamrick.com.

For some examples of just how good PMK can be see www.edkrebs.com.

Hope this helps.

C

 

[JoeFriday]

ICE is a scanning feature that uses an infrared system to remove dust particles on the scans during the scanning process, as well as fixing scratches.. it cuts down on post-scanning cleanup time in PS immensely

 

[JoeFriday]

Thanks Gene I'll give them a try. To date I've been shooting Velvis 100 and Provia 100 and 400 and converting to B&W in Photoshop. The results are OK but somethong is missing

that reminded me of something I read on
Ken Rockwell's website a few days ago...

"Personally I shoot Velvia color slide film, scan it, and convert it to B/W for my modern B/W work anyway. Yes, I've won awards and had these prints exhibited in museums over other people's prints made with traditional B/W methods and film.

A huge advantage of having a color film source is that you can control the effective filtration after you shoot the film. In other words, by playing with the channel mixer in Photoshop you can get the same look as having used various color filters over the lens with B/W film. By using the channel mixer with color film you have complete and continuous control after the exposure, and the real reason to do it is you can effectively use different effective filtration for different regions of the image. That makes this method superior to traditional B/W film."

 

[varjag]

ICE stands for Infraded Channel Enchancement I think; it makes an additional pass over the neg in infrared. The color dyes of E6 or C41 film are invisible at this wavelength, while the dust is. It results in a map of dust/defects that can be used by the scanning software over the original to eliminate them (similar to how the clone or healing brush works in Photoshop).

However the image-forming metallic silver in traditional BW emulsions is visible in IR light, so ICE doesn't work for them.

 

[dcsang]

ICE is a scanning feature that uses an infrared system to remove dust particles on the scans during the scanning process, as well as fixing scratches.. it cuts down on post-scanning cleanup time in PS immensely

And here I thought you'd give us the traditional "frozen water" definition...what with you being from Wisconsin and all that 😉

Dave

 

[varjag]

Ken Rockwell is entitled to his opinion, but I'd agree with Spenny. I didn't win any awards, but still think that something is often missing in conversion, be that grain, acutance or tonality of conventional BW film. Sometimes it can be matched, but there's no single method that can be applied uniformly for consistent results.

Besides what he talks about colored filter effects is rubbish. You can't simulate orange or blue filter fully: the former cuts through fog and haze while the latter emphasizes them. Granted he might not care about it for his type of work, but there *is* difference, it *does* affect the final image and it *can't* be reproduced in post-processing (unless you resort to heavy manipulation).

 

[JoeFriday]

varjag: I'd probably agree with you.. Rockwell has some interesting approaches that are worth investigating, but generally I find his viewpoints to be simplistic and geared toward people that want a quick answer without putting in their own effort to see what might actually work best for them.. I just thought I'd share his comments in case anyone would want to play around with that method

Dave: ice? Wisconsin? it's a vertible tropic over here compared to the Great White North you live in.. you must have meant cheese!

 

[photodog]

I would suggest doing your own tests to find out what film works best for the look you are trying to achieve. I personally am a fan of Tri-X and HP5 developed in HC110. Traditional black and white has an edge sharpness and contrast that is unique.

 

[vincentbenoit]

True, using a Velvia scan as the basis for a B&W conversion might produce a superior monochrome tonality, however it'll also leave you with a smooth, textureless image. That's okay if you're into that kind of look, but many people (including me) actually like the grainy texture that only traditional silver-based B&W emulsion can provide. I for one find grainless B&W images almost as inadequate as Ken Rockwell's oversaturated pictures of boring static subjects. 😉
Cheers
Vincent

 

[dcsang]

Dave: ice? Wisconsin? it's a vertible tropic over here compared to the Great White North you live in.. you must have meant cheese!

Take Off Eh !!! 😉

I just figure that you'd be all about the Frozen Tundra Of Lambeau Field !! 😉

Dave

 

[JoeFriday]

ah yes.. good old Lambert Field.. but no, I don't pay much attention to football in general.. I find Sunday afternoons the best time to get my shopping done for the week

 

[djon]

That Nikon will scan any B&W film equally well. You may enjoy the grainlessness of C41 film and the ability to use Ice (if your film's a mess), or you may prefer silver B&W films processed at home (I do, but mostly because of the inconvenience of C41 photolabs). Nikonscan, however, is another matter. That scanning application doesn't do as well with B&W silver film as it does with C41 B&W...exaggerates grain and sees weirdness ("popcorn grain") that other applications ignore. The solution is to use Vuescan ...or to use the very effective Nikonscan workaround: scan the B&W as positive (like a slide) and invert in Photoshop. I don't like the extra step and I do like Vuescan, which I use for everything. But Nikonscan's great for all color film.

AND I don't have to do much dust spotting on scans of my silver negs... that has a lot to do with my cutting and sleeving: I use archival polyester sleeves #20089 from Light Impressions, not the floppy stuff sold by camera stores. 😉

 

[Trius]

Joe: You might find Dave's environs (Toronto) milder than yours! Even though you're on roughly the same latitude, T.O. is considered banana belt by many. Not as mild as Windsor, and certainly not as tropical as Vancouver. A lot of the weather comes off Lake Huron (northwesterly flow) and dumps around London and Stratford (my home) before it hits Lake Erie. Also, the Niagara escarpment blocks a lot of weather before it reaches the Big Smoke.

Trius

 

[Todd.Hanz]

You'll get as many different answers as there are photographers here 😀, so here's what I use.

Tri-X rated at 200 developed in Xtol 1:1, D76 1:1

Fuji Acros rated 100-200 developed in Xtol 1:1, Rodinal 1:50, or D76 1:1

Agfa APX 100 in Rodinal 1:50

my 2cents


Todd

 

[ZeissFan]

Some questions for spenny:

-- Why return to film? That is, what is it about film that interests you?

-- Do you think you'll stay with film? Split time with digital and film? Or is this more of a curiosity thing?

Just curious ...