rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Here on RFF there have been several discussions about film vs digital longevity.
They get a bit heated sometimes regarding which is better.
I'm here to say: Neither.
What is better: have back ups of which ever you use.
I am primarily a film shooter but I get my film scanned when processed. So I have for the last ten years or so gotten my negs and a CD.
I thought I was pretty well covered; I had my physical objects--the negs--that, if stored right, will last a long time. And I had the scans on CD--that since they are not a physical object I can just migrate them to new media and keep on my PC or else where and they will last for a long time.
The digital scans I have are mostly smallish--4 to 6 mb-- and I used them as a sort of contact sheet: an easy way to view my shots and a way to catalog them. Any of the few I really liked I would and did get rescanned at more serious sizes.
And I have all those basic scans on my computer's hard drive.
So, a very lazy way to keep my photos. I work away from my home 10 months of the year but I still have all my photos with me(at that small size) and if I lose my computer, the negs are "safe" at home and I can just reload the CDs and/or rescan the negs.
Yeah, that was a good plan.
Right up until about 3:30 this afternoon when I got a phone call from my brother to tell me that our f**khead neighbors had set the building on fire.
My brother is OK, our cat is, well not fine but alive and pissed off, and everything else is gone.
Right now all the photos I have taken since 2000 or so are only on my notebook. and I no longer have the negs. So, if my computer fails, my work from the last ten years will be...just gone. Yes, I do have a few photos here in the RFF gallery and I have a few others in various on line sites but I had 2 or 3000 frames of 35mm film that are now, at least, smoke and water logged. Assuming that we can even get access to look for the charred box they were in.
Folks, whether you shoot film or digital: back 'em up.
Rob
They get a bit heated sometimes regarding which is better.
I'm here to say: Neither.
What is better: have back ups of which ever you use.
I am primarily a film shooter but I get my film scanned when processed. So I have for the last ten years or so gotten my negs and a CD.
I thought I was pretty well covered; I had my physical objects--the negs--that, if stored right, will last a long time. And I had the scans on CD--that since they are not a physical object I can just migrate them to new media and keep on my PC or else where and they will last for a long time.
The digital scans I have are mostly smallish--4 to 6 mb-- and I used them as a sort of contact sheet: an easy way to view my shots and a way to catalog them. Any of the few I really liked I would and did get rescanned at more serious sizes.
And I have all those basic scans on my computer's hard drive.
So, a very lazy way to keep my photos. I work away from my home 10 months of the year but I still have all my photos with me(at that small size) and if I lose my computer, the negs are "safe" at home and I can just reload the CDs and/or rescan the negs.
Yeah, that was a good plan.
Right up until about 3:30 this afternoon when I got a phone call from my brother to tell me that our f**khead neighbors had set the building on fire.
My brother is OK, our cat is, well not fine but alive and pissed off, and everything else is gone.
Right now all the photos I have taken since 2000 or so are only on my notebook. and I no longer have the negs. So, if my computer fails, my work from the last ten years will be...just gone. Yes, I do have a few photos here in the RFF gallery and I have a few others in various on line sites but I had 2 or 3000 frames of 35mm film that are now, at least, smoke and water logged. Assuming that we can even get access to look for the charred box they were in.
Folks, whether you shoot film or digital: back 'em up.
Rob
emraphoto
Veteran
that really sucks mate. sorry to hear it. i actually have fire proof safes for my hard drives and negs for just such an occasion.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
The serious loss really isn't my photos [they still live on this computer] but there were some things that are really irreplaceable: furniture my dad made, letters from my grandmother, the sense of home. And the one suit I own that looked great on me.
I appreciate your empathy emraphoto and goong forward, I am thinking of something similar.
I'm still at the point of making stupid jokes and haven't quite decided to freak out about the fire. Yet.
Though I am officially homeless now...:bang:
I appreciate your empathy emraphoto and goong forward, I am thinking of something similar.
I'm still at the point of making stupid jokes and haven't quite decided to freak out about the fire. Yet.
Though I am officially homeless now...:bang:
emraphoto
Veteran
jeez man, i really don't know what to say... i am speechless. that sucks something fierce!
i mean i am glad your safe and all but sheet man! how did the cameras make out?
i mean i am glad your safe and all but sheet man! how did the cameras make out?
pachuco
El ****
Holy Sh*t! That is terrible! I'm so happy to hear that you are not hurt. Thank you for the reminder to back things up, good advice.
t.s.k.
Hooked on philm
Wow.
I guess voicing sympathy won't get your life back, but I will say that totally sucks and I'm glad everyone is safe, including the cat.
You DO have insurance, no?
Getting back on your feet is priority number one.
Fretting about the images can take a back seat for now, eh?
I guess voicing sympathy won't get your life back, but I will say that totally sucks and I'm glad everyone is safe, including the cat.
You DO have insurance, no?
Getting back on your feet is priority number one.
Fretting about the images can take a back seat for now, eh?
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Yes, we (my brother and I) have insurance so stuff like the tv and stereo are probably covered.
No, there was no chance I would have been injured--it is my home but I'm working about 160 miles away from home right now.
"The cameras"...well, my core set is with me so they are fine. The others--all the gear I don't consider to be first string but still keep because the second string is important, dammit!, is at best water soaked. And not just dropped into a lake but sprayed by the fire-hose.
The absolute worst thing is that I can't give my brother a hug. He is OK but he was in our place when the f**kheads next door lit it up. I've spent a bunch of time on the phone earlier tonight but I am upset about not being able to physically connect.
Rob
No, there was no chance I would have been injured--it is my home but I'm working about 160 miles away from home right now.
"The cameras"...well, my core set is with me so they are fine. The others--all the gear I don't consider to be first string but still keep because the second string is important, dammit!, is at best water soaked. And not just dropped into a lake but sprayed by the fire-hose.
The absolute worst thing is that I can't give my brother a hug. He is OK but he was in our place when the f**kheads next door lit it up. I've spent a bunch of time on the phone earlier tonight but I am upset about not being able to physically connect.
Rob
Rob, my sincere regrets for your loss. I have imagined something like that happening to me. I do have fireproof safe but it's nowhere big enough to hold all that needs to be protected. I've imagined a modular/expandable safe design...
Now, though, it's more important than ever to make sure you have multiple backups of what is left on your computer, and keep an updated copy/copies in another location(s). But be careful even doing that! I had a catastrophic loss of my own graphic design work through carelessness in backing up... I accidentally backed up one volume over the top of the important work, then backed up the mistake onto other media, wiping out my only backup of years of work. I could have avoided total disaster by using read-only CD media for backup too.
Good luck and best wishes...
Now, though, it's more important than ever to make sure you have multiple backups of what is left on your computer, and keep an updated copy/copies in another location(s). But be careful even doing that! I had a catastrophic loss of my own graphic design work through carelessness in backing up... I accidentally backed up one volume over the top of the important work, then backed up the mistake onto other media, wiping out my only backup of years of work. I could have avoided total disaster by using read-only CD media for backup too.
Good luck and best wishes...
amateriat
We're all light!
Rob: Really sorry to hear of this. Glad you, brother and cat are okay. I know what you mean about the frustration of not being able to connect.
About the images on that hard drive: I think you should get yourself a compact external hard drive, not just for backing up the data, but the entire drive, OS, apps and all. If the laptop's drive should lunch on you suddenly, you'd be able to restore everything from the backup. As an additional bit of insurance, you can either buy an identical external drive, make periodic backups to that, and store it off-site (which helps in case of events such as what unfortunately happened to you), or use a service like Mozy for uploading.
Best of luck getting through this: I've had one similar episode, and the process of getting one's life together afterward truly bites.
- Barrett
About the images on that hard drive: I think you should get yourself a compact external hard drive, not just for backing up the data, but the entire drive, OS, apps and all. If the laptop's drive should lunch on you suddenly, you'd be able to restore everything from the backup. As an additional bit of insurance, you can either buy an identical external drive, make periodic backups to that, and store it off-site (which helps in case of events such as what unfortunately happened to you), or use a service like Mozy for uploading.
Best of luck getting through this: I've had one similar episode, and the process of getting one's life together afterward truly bites.
- Barrett
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Damn that sucks. I am paranoid and bad things tend to happen to me (hence my paranoia) so I figured I better have proper backups years ago. I scan all of my good negs at the highest resolution my Nikon LS-8000ED offers using a glass carrier for everything. The finished, edited files are kept on matched pairs of external hard drives with everything totally duplicated on each of the two drives. I actually have 7 external drives full of stuff, and each has a matching duplicate for 14 total drives. My duplicate is kept in a family member's house on the opposite side of the city from me. If my house burns or is burglarized or flooded or whatever, I'll have my copies of EVERYTHING.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Deepest sympathy. This is unimaginable. Not so much the loss -- we can all begin to imagine that -- as the idea that it was deliberate.
Tashi delek (may it be auspicious),
R.
Tashi delek (may it be auspicious),
R.
paulfish4570
Veteran
mercy. my family lost our house to a fast fire on april 1, 1972. the memory remains fresh. it is a hard thing.
robert blu
quiet photographer
Sorry to ear this, glad to know your brother and cat are ok. Yes, backing is a must. I m also thinking to keep my negs in a different place than my external drives with the copy of original scans and with edited files ready for prints. I wish you good luck, ciao
robert
robert
oftheherd
Veteran
Yep, house fires are not fun. We had a house fire nineteen years ago last month. I lost some of my camera gear, and slides and negatives were damaged. We came home from church to find smoke billowing from the house and the fire department starting to do their thing. Not pets were hurt, and of course, no people were physically hurt. There is of course damage to the psyche. It isn't fun to have precious possessions lost or damaged. In one way you are lucky not to see some of those possessions in a state other than what you remember.
Most of our possessions were damaged beyond further use. The recovery company that came in did its share as did the firemen. At least I can somewhat excuse the firemen as their first job is to put out fire, not property saving. That can come later, and they did assist some with that. There are other things in that line they could have done better, but overall I am not complaining.
Your (and if there was sufficient negligence, the apartment owners and those who started the fire), insurance will pony up money for personal property. I hope you had enough. (/jumps on soap box/) A good rule of thumb is two to two and one half times your evaluation of what your property is worth. You have bought clothing, furniture, camera gear, all over a period of time. Although used, most is still good, the OP's suit is an example. Suddenly, you come home and it is all gone or damaged beyond repair, and must be replaced all at once. Not over a period of time. That was my mistake. We did not have enough insurance. (/soapbox mode off/)
I don't know the extent of the damage. The first thing to consider is that everything is going to smell like the inside of a fireplace. There are companies that specialize in treating property to remove that. If insurance coverage is a problem, you can do much of it yourself, such as washing clothes and putting them outside in sunlight. Be prepared that some things just can't be treated sufficiently for that. I had a leather coat that never did completely stop smelling.
Due to the way we make a lot of our property, there is a lot of acid in the smoke from a fire. When the fire department comes along to spray water, it picks up a lot of that acid and now whatever is left has acidic water on/in it. The point is, nothing is going to be further damaged by a strong fresh water bath, in fact it may be helped. Mild base solutions of water may be beneficial.
Most electronic appliances/equipment will be damaged by that acid more that the water, from which it could just dry out. Insurance companies routinely replace electronic equipment without question for that reason. Easier to do that than to spend months processing claims as equipment slowly dies. So let them do it, but you may find you can salvage some of it by washing, or simply drying it. That will allow you to spend that money on replacing something else.
Film can sometimes be saved by an immediate washing and drying before acid or just too much water does any damage. It must be removed from sleeves or wherever it was, and thouroughly washed and properly dried. Do that yourself. Do not trust it to people who don't know anything about film, and will just absorb insurance money better spent elsewhere.
Some things you may want to keep even though damaged and replaced by the insurance company. Remember to treat them to a good water bath to give them a better chance. You will probably want to dry them completely, then bag them and probably store them at an off site storage place. They may smell for a long time, or forever. Sorry, that's just the way it is sometimes.
Only you know how best to recover from this, and your family. I wouldn't be afraid to talk to people about it. They may or may not want to hear it, but it may help you to get it off your chest. Seek professional help if you think you need it. You do need to get through it. I can't really help with that, because everyone is different. If you have questions, PM me. I may or not be able to help, but I will try.
One thing about storage. As mentioned by Chris above, if you choose to back up digitally, be sure to back up at the highest resolution you can, and store at an off site location. In fireproof safes is a good idea, especially in the same city, as a natural disaster that hits you will likely hit them too.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it will help the OP, as well as others who may be thinking about mitigating loss.
Most of our possessions were damaged beyond further use. The recovery company that came in did its share as did the firemen. At least I can somewhat excuse the firemen as their first job is to put out fire, not property saving. That can come later, and they did assist some with that. There are other things in that line they could have done better, but overall I am not complaining.
Your (and if there was sufficient negligence, the apartment owners and those who started the fire), insurance will pony up money for personal property. I hope you had enough. (/jumps on soap box/) A good rule of thumb is two to two and one half times your evaluation of what your property is worth. You have bought clothing, furniture, camera gear, all over a period of time. Although used, most is still good, the OP's suit is an example. Suddenly, you come home and it is all gone or damaged beyond repair, and must be replaced all at once. Not over a period of time. That was my mistake. We did not have enough insurance. (/soapbox mode off/)
I don't know the extent of the damage. The first thing to consider is that everything is going to smell like the inside of a fireplace. There are companies that specialize in treating property to remove that. If insurance coverage is a problem, you can do much of it yourself, such as washing clothes and putting them outside in sunlight. Be prepared that some things just can't be treated sufficiently for that. I had a leather coat that never did completely stop smelling.
Due to the way we make a lot of our property, there is a lot of acid in the smoke from a fire. When the fire department comes along to spray water, it picks up a lot of that acid and now whatever is left has acidic water on/in it. The point is, nothing is going to be further damaged by a strong fresh water bath, in fact it may be helped. Mild base solutions of water may be beneficial.
Most electronic appliances/equipment will be damaged by that acid more that the water, from which it could just dry out. Insurance companies routinely replace electronic equipment without question for that reason. Easier to do that than to spend months processing claims as equipment slowly dies. So let them do it, but you may find you can salvage some of it by washing, or simply drying it. That will allow you to spend that money on replacing something else.
Film can sometimes be saved by an immediate washing and drying before acid or just too much water does any damage. It must be removed from sleeves or wherever it was, and thouroughly washed and properly dried. Do that yourself. Do not trust it to people who don't know anything about film, and will just absorb insurance money better spent elsewhere.
Some things you may want to keep even though damaged and replaced by the insurance company. Remember to treat them to a good water bath to give them a better chance. You will probably want to dry them completely, then bag them and probably store them at an off site storage place. They may smell for a long time, or forever. Sorry, that's just the way it is sometimes.
Only you know how best to recover from this, and your family. I wouldn't be afraid to talk to people about it. They may or may not want to hear it, but it may help you to get it off your chest. Seek professional help if you think you need it. You do need to get through it. I can't really help with that, because everyone is different. If you have questions, PM me. I may or not be able to help, but I will try.
One thing about storage. As mentioned by Chris above, if you choose to back up digitally, be sure to back up at the highest resolution you can, and store at an off site location. In fireproof safes is a good idea, especially in the same city, as a natural disaster that hits you will likely hit them too.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it will help the OP, as well as others who may be thinking about mitigating loss.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Oh hell Rob, that's awful, just awful. I'm just glad you weren't hurt in it.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Rob, I just don't know what to say. While no one was injured, there will be grief and that process. All the best.
bmattock
Veteran
I also offer my condolences, and I am likewise glad no one was injured.
With regard to your statement about film vs digital, you are of course correct, both are equally important to back up. This thread is not the place for that sort of debate anyway.
In my industry, the term used is SPOF, which means Single Point of Failure. The goal is to eliminate SPOF to the extent possible. There are always constraints to be considered, such as budget and the relative value of the configuration item (CI) to be protected, plus (in my industry) regulatory requirements for archival storage. But the principles are the same; if one wishes to minimize the possibility of catastrophic loss, seek to eliminate SPOF wherever possible. That is true of film or digital, as you say.
I hope that you are able to recover as much as possible of your valued heirlooms. Very sorry for your loss.
With regard to your statement about film vs digital, you are of course correct, both are equally important to back up. This thread is not the place for that sort of debate anyway.
In my industry, the term used is SPOF, which means Single Point of Failure. The goal is to eliminate SPOF to the extent possible. There are always constraints to be considered, such as budget and the relative value of the configuration item (CI) to be protected, plus (in my industry) regulatory requirements for archival storage. But the principles are the same; if one wishes to minimize the possibility of catastrophic loss, seek to eliminate SPOF wherever possible. That is true of film or digital, as you say.
I hope that you are able to recover as much as possible of your valued heirlooms. Very sorry for your loss.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Thanks for all the replies, folks!
My brother was able to get into the apt yesterday. Not much actual fire damage but there was still an inch of standing water. So I can only imagine how much water went through the place.
Oftheheard, I appreciate you sharing your experiences with me, good stuff to know.
Barrett, As it turns out I actually do have that external drive and fortuitously, it has everything that was on my computer up to a couple of weeks ago. I bought a bigger drive for my laptop and just copied the old drive to the new one. I was planning on wiping that old drive and using it as storage space to back up data...now, I will be getting another drive for that and keeping the old drive as is.
As for the cameras at home, not certain what their condition actually is right now and the only one of those that's really important to me is the Argus that my grandfather used. It has been living in the leather bag he used and while the camera still worked, I'd only get it out once or twice a year; not so much to take photos with but because the smell of that bag and the stuff in it strongly reminded me of granddad. That ain't going to work anymore, I guess.
I had already been winnowing my pile of cameras; not from any ascetic sense but just to get a manageable load for my twice yearly migrations. A bit drastic, but that "problem" is solved.
Bill, I've read most of those threads debating film v digi longevity and have agreed with you about its necessity. This is what I get for not doing anything about it; nobody to blame but me. Not for the fire (that absolutely has a person to blame) but me for not being serious about this. Stupid, really. I've spent a good deal of time, effort, and money on this hobby of mine and while I do love the gear it is, for me, the print that's the pay off. And I've done almost nothing to safeguard those results.
Now I can see two choices: get serious about this or don't bother putting film in my cameras.
John, enjoy that Z3m from Brian: it might e one of the ones I'd sold/traded to him! A lucky survivor.
Every one else: thanks again for the supportive comments here!
Rob
My brother was able to get into the apt yesterday. Not much actual fire damage but there was still an inch of standing water. So I can only imagine how much water went through the place.
Oftheheard, I appreciate you sharing your experiences with me, good stuff to know.
Barrett, As it turns out I actually do have that external drive and fortuitously, it has everything that was on my computer up to a couple of weeks ago. I bought a bigger drive for my laptop and just copied the old drive to the new one. I was planning on wiping that old drive and using it as storage space to back up data...now, I will be getting another drive for that and keeping the old drive as is.
As for the cameras at home, not certain what their condition actually is right now and the only one of those that's really important to me is the Argus that my grandfather used. It has been living in the leather bag he used and while the camera still worked, I'd only get it out once or twice a year; not so much to take photos with but because the smell of that bag and the stuff in it strongly reminded me of granddad. That ain't going to work anymore, I guess.
I had already been winnowing my pile of cameras; not from any ascetic sense but just to get a manageable load for my twice yearly migrations. A bit drastic, but that "problem" is solved.
Bill, I've read most of those threads debating film v digi longevity and have agreed with you about its necessity. This is what I get for not doing anything about it; nobody to blame but me. Not for the fire (that absolutely has a person to blame) but me for not being serious about this. Stupid, really. I've spent a good deal of time, effort, and money on this hobby of mine and while I do love the gear it is, for me, the print that's the pay off. And I've done almost nothing to safeguard those results.
Now I can see two choices: get serious about this or don't bother putting film in my cameras.
John, enjoy that Z3m from Brian: it might e one of the ones I'd sold/traded to him! A lucky survivor.
Every one else: thanks again for the supportive comments here!
Rob
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
I got some photos of the building today. Along with some good news--we have a new apartment. So I'm not homeless any more!
I almost put the attached photo in FrankS' "photo corner" thread...
My cameras and associated stuff that was in the place are not likely to be salvageable but I won't know for sure until I get back down to Cortland in another week.
Rob
I almost put the attached photo in FrankS' "photo corner" thread...
My cameras and associated stuff that was in the place are not likely to be salvageable but I won't know for sure until I get back down to Cortland in another week.
Rob
Attachments
amateriat
We're all light!
Rob: Thanks for the update. Glad to hear about the new apartment! At least that issue is more or less settled while you get to dealing with everything else.
Looking at that photo...ouch!...that looks bad.
I lift a glass to your progress.
- Barrett
Looking at that photo...ouch!...that looks bad.
I lift a glass to your progress.
- Barrett