dmr
Registered Abuser
Next month I'm going to be shooting some interior shots in a rather unusual venue. Groups of people in meeting and dining rooms in a smaller restored "boutique" hotel, with dark wood paneling and darker earth tones. Ceiling, IIRC is maybe an ecru or a dark eggshell at the lightest, quite warmish, IIRC, so bounce flash will probably not be an option. Available light is poor, mixed, and quite warm.
Here's the problem. To get these shots I'm probably going to have to use the Sigma 18mm ultrawide. (non fisheye)
I have two flash units, a Vivitar 2600, which is probably out of the question. Then I have the hand-me-down resurrected Sunpak 120 flame-thrower. I know it won't light the scene with the reflector, even at the so-called wide-angle position.
I can do it bare-bulb, no reflector, either aiming the bulb upward or pointed forward.
The problem is, I have no clue as to how to expose for such a situation.
Can auto mode be depended upon in a situation like this? Or should I use manual and do guide numbers? If I do guide numbers, should I try to adjust for the 360 degree coverage of the bulb?
Yes, I looked at TFM, and it didn't really say much about bare bulb mode except that you can do it.
Anybody shot a bare bulb unit in a similar situation?
TIA, gang.
Here's the problem. To get these shots I'm probably going to have to use the Sigma 18mm ultrawide. (non fisheye)
I have two flash units, a Vivitar 2600, which is probably out of the question. Then I have the hand-me-down resurrected Sunpak 120 flame-thrower. I know it won't light the scene with the reflector, even at the so-called wide-angle position.
I can do it bare-bulb, no reflector, either aiming the bulb upward or pointed forward.
The problem is, I have no clue as to how to expose for such a situation.
Can auto mode be depended upon in a situation like this? Or should I use manual and do guide numbers? If I do guide numbers, should I try to adjust for the 360 degree coverage of the bulb?
Yes, I looked at TFM, and it didn't really say much about bare bulb mode except that you can do it.
Anybody shot a bare bulb unit in a similar situation?
TIA, gang.
pgeobc
Established
"...The problem is, I have no clue as to how to expose for such a situation..."
Test and derive your own guide number. Or, test and see what happens with auto under conditions contrived to mimic the expected situations.
Test and derive your own guide number. Or, test and see what happens with auto under conditions contrived to mimic the expected situations.
dmr
Registered Abuser
Problem is I won't be there long enough to test, even a test roll with 1 hour processing will be pushing it. In the afternoon and shoot that evening.
John Robertson
Well-known
either test or bracket, I used to use a Leitz CEYOO gun and huge P97 bulbs for interiors, flash was like a nuclear explosion. Scary and you had to wear a glove to change bulbs. Thank God for electronic!!!
charjohncarter
Veteran
18mm is pretty wide. I would go the to site before hand, take the two flashes and a flash meter, possibly a DSLR and test. I would try the bounce just in case it might work. I don't know about the 'flame thrower' but I have a 2600 and it is not powerful so you might have to use both. You picked a difficult lighting shoot. Sometimes those really wide lenses can produce dramatic shots. I have one of those cheapo Zenitars, supposedly 180 degrees lenses and as it has distortion, I try to put the subject right in the middle. This isn't with flash but you might try something like this:
By the way, my Vivitar 2600 is very good using the auto modes.
By the way, my Vivitar 2600 is very good using the auto modes.
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dmr
Registered Abuser
It's a WEAPON! It's a huge honking bare-bulb unit with a circular reflector. The flash tube looks like a large old-fashioned radio tube. It's the one I used for most of the "Weegee experiments" and it's extremely bright at the full power setting.
I didn't pick it! I said I could probably do it after a couple of the usual DSLR jocks said it was not possible to get everybody in.
I'm confident that I can get acceptable results, and I do want the exposure to be as close as I can get it to be. I'll probably use plain vanilla Fuji 200 C41 color.It's a very good flash and is my main flash unit for the Real Cameras<tm>. I've had it since the mid 90s and never had trouble. It's small enough to carry around easily and it runs forever on a set of batteries. It does vignette a bit when I use it with the zoom at 28.
charjohncarter
Veteran
Sounds like the 'flame thrower' is pretty much fun, I'll look it up.
The challenge of the site. You probably could do a better job. Film is so nice with flash, I love it; I have a DSLR and when I do flash with it it makes the harshness of digital even more harsh. You will get that smooth vanilla look with Fuji 200.
I'm an amateur so I never shoot at sites, but I took my 2600 to Mexico this winter and just left it on my BessaR, the first is fill in that late afternoon, and the second is my attempt to look like Martin Parr. The 2600 did not miss a shot in Mexico with Elitechrome:
The challenge of the site. You probably could do a better job. Film is so nice with flash, I love it; I have a DSLR and when I do flash with it it makes the harshness of digital even more harsh. You will get that smooth vanilla look with Fuji 200.
I'm an amateur so I never shoot at sites, but I took my 2600 to Mexico this winter and just left it on my BessaR, the first is fill in that late afternoon, and the second is my attempt to look like Martin Parr. The 2600 did not miss a shot in Mexico with Elitechrome:
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oftheherd
Veteran
I used to use flash quite a lot. I used everything from Sunpak 544 to some small vivitars for shadow/rimlight control. Now usually when I do, I tend to use a dedicated flash with proper coverage.
When I used to use it a lot, I found that experimentation and experience was the solution to all problems. If you can't go to the site, you need to duplicate it as much as possible and run some experiments.
I really would recommend more than one flash. Remember the inverse square rule. Those in front of you with bare bulb will get more light than those to the sides. You might be able to rig a shallow "V" shaped reflector behind the bulb to help (cardboard and tinfoil).
Since I don't know exactly what your shoot setup will be, I can't be sure that will be a problem, but it probably will at least effect the photo. Dodging/burning may provide a solution, but correct light to begin with is better.
When I used to use it a lot, I found that experimentation and experience was the solution to all problems. If you can't go to the site, you need to duplicate it as much as possible and run some experiments.
I really would recommend more than one flash. Remember the inverse square rule. Those in front of you with bare bulb will get more light than those to the sides. You might be able to rig a shallow "V" shaped reflector behind the bulb to help (cardboard and tinfoil).
Since I don't know exactly what your shoot setup will be, I can't be sure that will be a problem, but it probably will at least effect the photo. Dodging/burning may provide a solution, but correct light to begin with is better.
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John Robertson
Well-known
Now this is REAL bare bulb photography.
Oliver Winston Link, famous for night photos of trains taken with flash.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/storycorps/2947153997/
Oliver Winston Link, famous for night photos of trains taken with flash.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/storycorps/2947153997/
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Luddite Frank
Well-known
If you're doing this for hire, or you're going to be the only one documenting an important event, suggest you find a way to make an advance visit / site survey and do some test photos...
If you're going with bulbs, a bulb with a long burn-time will probably serve you best, something like an FP or the old Edison screw-base flash bulbs... and slow shutter speed, to give the film as much light as possible.
Multiple flash units bounced off the ceiling, discreetly spread round the space & slaved, would help illuminate the interior more evenly.
A single bare bulb is liable to produce a variety of very strong, unwanted shadows...
The reference to O. Winston Link is a good one, take a look at his set-ups to photograph moving trains at night, all back in the flashbulb era... ( LOTS of flash arrays for one shot ! )
A few years back there was a national touring exhibit of his work: "Trains that passed in the night" .
One the shortcomings of electronic flash is that the burst is of such short duration that it usually only lights faces enar the camera, leaving the rest of the room dark. This is where long-peak flashbulbs still have an edge....
If you're going with bulbs, a bulb with a long burn-time will probably serve you best, something like an FP or the old Edison screw-base flash bulbs... and slow shutter speed, to give the film as much light as possible.
Multiple flash units bounced off the ceiling, discreetly spread round the space & slaved, would help illuminate the interior more evenly.
A single bare bulb is liable to produce a variety of very strong, unwanted shadows...
The reference to O. Winston Link is a good one, take a look at his set-ups to photograph moving trains at night, all back in the flashbulb era... ( LOTS of flash arrays for one shot ! )
A few years back there was a national touring exhibit of his work: "Trains that passed in the night" .
One the shortcomings of electronic flash is that the burst is of such short duration that it usually only lights faces enar the camera, leaving the rest of the room dark. This is where long-peak flashbulbs still have an edge....
olleorama
flasher extraordinaire
Beg, steal, rent or borrow a flash meter. Or chimp with a dslr.
The bare bulb flash will probably not give even light enough.
The bare bulb flash will probably not give even light enough.
John Robertson
Well-known
About 15 years ago I threw out a box of 50 PF60's they went to the local refuse incinerator, would have loved to have seen the effect!!!! BTW most of their safety blue spots had turned pink, If you are from that era you will know what I mean.
John Robertson
Well-known
On the subject of O Winston Link, I hope the train drivers were forewarned about these shots, especially in the late 50's at the height of the cold war!!!
Change of underwear required I should think!!!
Change of underwear required I should think!!!
Luddite Frank
Well-known
On the subject of O Winston Link, I hope the train drivers were forewarned about these shots, especially in the late 50's at the height of the cold war!!!
Change of underwear required I should think!!!
Actually, Link had the full blessing of the Norfolk & Western, his "favorite" railroad, down in Virginia, and frequently had cooperation from the train crews...
Engineers were indeed warned of Links activities, though I'm sure more than a few cussed him when those bulbs went-off !
Link became an expert on that Railroad, and studied and planned where and when he wanted to shoot, knew their operating schedule, etc. He also usually had an assistant with him for the night shots.
One of his most iconic nighttime shots is of a heavy freight lumbering past a drive-in movie theatre while a film was playing.
American railroad fans owe a great debt of gratitude to this photographer from NYC, who singlehandedly documented the final days of what was to become "The Last Steam Railroad in America".
John Robertson
Well-known
I like the one with the kids swimming in the stream, quite surreal at night!!
Wish he had done shots of the Pennsylvania RR ,Lowey designed T1 locos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T1_color_photo.jpg
Wish he had done shots of the Pennsylvania RR ,Lowey designed T1 locos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T1_color_photo.jpg
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dmr
Registered Abuser
Now I'm not really a railfan (nor a trainspotter, and I do know the difference)
but I've occasionally shot various rail-related scenes and I always attend our Railroad Days each year.One bit of trivia I did pick up is that our own Union Pacific is the only US main-line railroad which has never officially retired steam. They have two working steam engines in their "Heritage Fleet", used mostly for excursions and publicity. Here's a shot I got of one of them a few years back, up close and personal:
This was fired up and ready to roll out when I took this. I tried to capture the steam venting from the sides, but I did not get a good image of it.
But wait! There's more!
This next tidbit came from a guide at the Western Heritage Museum last year, so I believe it to be accurate. Not often, but occasionally when the UP is "ferrying" either of the two steamers from point A to point B, and there are revenue freight cars going from A to B, they will indeed leverage the situation and pull a few cars with the steamers, making the UP the last US railroad to REALLY use steam.But anyway, back to the subject of flash ...
OMG NO!
It's really more of a "favor", but those involved can make my life very happy or very miserable if they choose to do so.
I do appreciate all of the suggestions, but I hope everyone understands that purchasing or borrowing equipment just isn't an option. I'll be flying in and packing light and short on time.
I'm not after perfection. I certainly do not want what would be ideal to stand in the way of what is good. I want "good snapshot quality" or better, something I can print at 8x10 or 8.5x11. I envision a few seated in the plush chairs and others standing, posed but informal. I have the shot in my mind and if I can light it and get everybody in, I'm confident of a pleasing result.
Here's what I plan to do ...
The suggestion of "find a similar room" was so obvious I could not see the forest for the trees. Thanks!
A client of ours has a boardroom of similar dimensions with a dark interior. I explained what I want to do, and they have no problem with me using it to take some test shots. I and a friend are going over there this week and I'll pose her center and to the sides so I can see how it looks on skin tones. There's a marker board so we can write "f/8 full power" and such on it to keep the test shots straight as to which is which.
I'm gonna try bare bulb up, bare bulb forward, and possibly try a cloth for a diffuser. I should be able to get a handle on what flash settings and what stops will give a good exposure.
Thanks again for all of the ideas on this.
charjohncarter
Veteran
Best of Luck to you, I know taking flash equipment with you is a very difficult project. I don't even like to take it in my car. Nice train shot!!!!
dmr
Registered Abuser
Thanks.
I can easily pack the Sunpak 120 in my carry-on bag along with the Pentax. I've done it before by removing the reflector and wrapping the pieces in clothing such as t-shirts.
Thanks {blush}.
That was kind of a coincidental shot. I and a friend were out just hanging around one Sunday when we came across a whole crowd of people in the park by the tracks and the steamer and a whole bunch of UP yellow passenger cars ready to depart. I used the little Olympus, then my carry-everywhere camera, to get the shots.
BillBingham2
Registered User
I was going to question how tall was the room and perhaps set up a few large flashes to paint the room from above but I'm thinking it's not possible from another post. You would need to use radio control as optical slaves would fire way too often.
A crazy option is to use off camera flash held by an assistant (over to a side and above). For me on camera flash sucks. The shadows do not give any depth to the shots, way too flat for my tastes. I've used a friend to take a flash attached by a 10 foot PC cord and done this in the past and have seen several photographers do this.
Keep in mind that the size of the light source (reflector) has a lot to do with character of light, bigger is very often better. A lot of little adapters have been sold over the years that help with bounce and diffusion that ALIMHO would be much better had they been three times the size.
Perhaps bare bulb with some sort of homemade reflector behind it to help some of the light focus. You loose 50% of our light behind the camera so perhaps a wide slightly curved reflector behind the bulb (but only as tall as the bulb) would work/help. Aluminum foil around some plastic works great when you use the duller side. I did a lot of little adapters for my old 192 and 283 30 year back that gave me the quality of light I wanted. Different plastic bottles, strips of plastic, some elastic and velcro work like a charm. I took a class at ICP years ago about flash and it was a LOT of fun. With digital cameras it's easy to run tests but syncing for me and the P&S digitals has been a problem (read MAJOR PROBLEM). We used Polaroid instant slide film in class, but that was early 80’s.
Painting with light is an art, be it flash or flood it makes a LOT of pictures that sell. Experiment and learn what gives you several different looks and keep the info in your arsenal of photographic tools.
Hope this helps.
B2
A crazy option is to use off camera flash held by an assistant (over to a side and above). For me on camera flash sucks. The shadows do not give any depth to the shots, way too flat for my tastes. I've used a friend to take a flash attached by a 10 foot PC cord and done this in the past and have seen several photographers do this.
Keep in mind that the size of the light source (reflector) has a lot to do with character of light, bigger is very often better. A lot of little adapters have been sold over the years that help with bounce and diffusion that ALIMHO would be much better had they been three times the size.
Perhaps bare bulb with some sort of homemade reflector behind it to help some of the light focus. You loose 50% of our light behind the camera so perhaps a wide slightly curved reflector behind the bulb (but only as tall as the bulb) would work/help. Aluminum foil around some plastic works great when you use the duller side. I did a lot of little adapters for my old 192 and 283 30 year back that gave me the quality of light I wanted. Different plastic bottles, strips of plastic, some elastic and velcro work like a charm. I took a class at ICP years ago about flash and it was a LOT of fun. With digital cameras it's easy to run tests but syncing for me and the P&S digitals has been a problem (read MAJOR PROBLEM). We used Polaroid instant slide film in class, but that was early 80’s.
Painting with light is an art, be it flash or flood it makes a LOT of pictures that sell. Experiment and learn what gives you several different looks and keep the info in your arsenal of photographic tools.
Hope this helps.
B2
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
You can test your flash with a flash meter in any location and get a good idea of how much light it will produce; you don't need to be able to test in the shooting location, really. Sure, the site may offer a huge amount of reflectivity, or be really huge and dark and eat up a lot of light, but even so the amount of light your flash unit throws at a given power setting should remain constant. You can test your flash at a given power setting (I'd start with full power) and you should be able to nail down the variables of what f-stop it will produce at a given distance (say, ten feet/3 meters) and at a given ISO. This is basically your guide number, and it tells you what stop you should use; the location shouldn't really matter- I doubt it'll add or subtract more than half a stop.
That being said, I will second the advice above to use a couple of flashes slaved somehow to fill each other's shadows and to provide more even coverage (especially shooting with super wide lenses). Finally, I think shooting bare bulb is a good idea in this situation. I've had good luck with bare bulb flashes in tight, dark spaces. I'd point the bulb forward and slightly up, at like a 45 degree angle above and away from you, slightly above your subjects. If you can use two of these like this, one on either side for the large groups you should be in good shape. Otherwise, I;d try to use the non-bare bulb unit on one side with it's power set slightly lower to fill. Good luck!
That being said, I will second the advice above to use a couple of flashes slaved somehow to fill each other's shadows and to provide more even coverage (especially shooting with super wide lenses). Finally, I think shooting bare bulb is a good idea in this situation. I've had good luck with bare bulb flashes in tight, dark spaces. I'd point the bulb forward and slightly up, at like a 45 degree angle above and away from you, slightly above your subjects. If you can use two of these like this, one on either side for the large groups you should be in good shape. Otherwise, I;d try to use the non-bare bulb unit on one side with it's power set slightly lower to fill. Good luck!
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