Best camera for low light social photography - to replace / supplement M9??

SimonPJ

SimonPJ

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In the 25 plus years that I've been using Leicas one of my main uses for them has been documenting social or work events that I'm participating in - usually when I'm sitting amongst the people I'm photographing, and often in very poor light because it's indoors, or late in the day. I know this is a familiar situation for many on RFF.

Until the M8, for me this usually meant a film M loaded with 800 ISO colour neg film, and more often than not a 35 'Lux wide open, or nearly so, shot at 1/30 or even 1/15. This can work fine - as long as you're able to juggle shallow depth of field and shoot when your subjects aren't getting too animated and moving around too much!

The M8 wasn't too much of a step up from film M's in handling these situations - and though the M9 is better, it's still in the same ballpark when it comes to dealing with real low light. You're having to really keep on your toes to make shallow depth of field and low shutter speeds work.

So, I've been wondering whether there are any interesting alternatives to try that would work better - or at least, differently - in these low light social situations.

I know there are plenty of cameras that can do a bit - maybe quite a bit - better than the M9 in low light.

But I know also that lots of them have problems focusing in low light.

So, if I want to try something that might be an interesting alternative to the M9 for this kind of photography, what should I try?

It needs to have significantly better high ISO performance than the M9 to open up the possibility of smaller apertures and faster shutter speeds.

It needs to be able to focus reliably and quickly on people's faces -preferably their eyes - in challengingly low light (all M's do this exceptionally well).

It needs to allow a good view of the subject for quick and responsive composition.

And it needs to be unobtrusive, quiet and easy to hold and pack - to make it easy to keep participating in the social situation.

So, what would this be? Fuji x100s? Any DSLR's? It always seems to me that there isn't anything out there which really nails all of the above features to make it an alternative to the M9. But I'd love to hear that I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Simon
 
The Canon 6D focuses in almost complete darkness with the center point and has incredible high ISO capability. It also is very quiet and is the smallest and lightest full-frame DSLR, so it's as unobtrusive as you can get in that genre.
 
OM-D
EM-1

Or the new A7?

etc.

They're all small, solid performers without being large or obstrusive.
The AF on the olympus cameras is great, and the 12mm f2 or 25mm f1.4 are fantastic.
There's actually facial/facial+eye recognition in the af.
The IS on the bodies is also top notch.
 
If you can live without color- the Monochrom will work. Many DSLRs will meet your performance criteria, but fail the unobtrusive requirement. In my experience being unobtrusive is important. I get very different images when I do an event with my M9 or Monochrom than when I use my D4. The difference is in how subjects react to me and the camera. With my Leicas I am generally ignored and get nice natural expressions. With the D4 I am very much noticed and get a lot of "I'm being photographed" expressions. I have to resort to much longer focal lengths and stand far enough away that I am not noticed. That does not always work.
 
Luke_Miller said:
With my Leicas I am generally ignored and get nice natural expressions. With the D4 I am very much noticed and get a lot of "I'm being photographed" expressions. I have to resort to much longer focal lengths and stand far enough away that I am not noticed. That does not always work.
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This is the rangefinder's trump card. The fact that you don't totally lose eye contact, and your face isn't obscured.

The Canon 6D sounds interesting, but I'd worry that I would lose the intimacy and spontaneity factor you get with a small rangefinder.
 
KoNickon said:
I'm interested in what people recommend for this very specific application. But what is "IS"?
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"IS" means image stabilization.

I guess the x100S would be the best choice for low light candid/ with friends indoors, though I don't own one. It has a quiet shutter, esp. compared to interchangeable lens cameras. You would get a similar lens to a 35 summilux, except of course the oof rendition/ depth of field.

For me the X100s is an alternative or replacement for a Leica rangefinder. But otherwise personally I would really enjoy shooting with a compact such as Ricoh GR in a situation like that.

unobstrusive, quick, small
 
Luke_Miller said:
If you can live without color- the Monochrom will work. Many DSLRs will meet your performance criteria, but fail the unobtrusive requirement. In my experience being unobtrusive is important. I get very different images when I do an event with my M9 or Monochrom than when I use my D4. The difference is in how subjects react to me and the camera. With my Leicas I am generally ignored and get nice natural expressions. With the D4 I am very much noticed and get a lot of "I'm being photographed" expressions. I have to resort to much longer focal lengths and stand far enough away that I am not noticed. That does not always work.
Click to expand...


This. The M(240) may also be an option - I haven't tried one so can't say for sure.

I'm not convinced that the M4/3 are really that far ahead of the M9 in low light, though I could be wrong (and several hundered folks will now, no doubt, set about proving it!)

Mike
 
the correct answer is the x100s. the AF is ok in low light (great at ISO 400, requires a tad of preparation at 6400 and f2), but the manual focus assist makes "ok" turn into "just fine, thank you". it's tiny, unobtrusive and utterly silent, and the 35mm FOV equivalent lens is wide enough and has close-enough focus to make in-crowd photography really fun. high ISO is lovely. at night, in a club or at a party, you can shoot at 6400 with a lot of confidence. i bought the camera for almost precisely the application you described and it's nearly perfect. i still get focus errors (i think the x200 will have better AF if you can wait) but i'm really happy with it.
 
Oh, IS is good at dealing with camera shake, but has no impact on subject movement - easy to overlook i the excitement of getting a sharp background at 1/10th, then noticing the blurred hands and faces.

Mike
 
porktaco said:
at night, in a club or at a party, you can shoot at 6400 with a lot of confidence. i bought the camera for almost precisely the application you described and it's nearly perfect. i still get focus errors (i think the x200 will have better AF if you can wait) but i'm really happy with it.
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Club, pub, party sums up the situation pretty well. The X100s sounds interesting - and definitely the right size and rf form factor. I find it hard to imagine how focusing could be as easy and instinctive as with an M - given that with an M you don't need to refocus if you know you're already focused in the right area. But I guess that's just a question that can only be answered by trying one out.
 
Any Fuji X-series APS-C camera with the most recent firmware installed is a practical option. I just acquired the 23/1.4 XF lens which I strongly recommend. The X100 or X100S will also meet your needs.

There are several other excellent options... such as the NEX cameras as well as the OM m4/3 systems.

The M240 appears to have outstanding SNR performance for your needs.
 
Ricoh or x100s would be my pick. If I was at a club/pub/party/concert environment, a good point&shoot will probably let me enjoy the moment more rather than focusing too much on getting the absolute best pictures.
 
SimonPJ said:
Club, pub, party sums up the situation pretty well. The X100s sounds interesting - and definitely the right size and rf form factor. I find it hard to imagine how focusing could be as easy and instinctive as with an M - given that with an M you don't need to refocus if you know you're already focused in the right area. But I guess that's just a question that can only be answered by trying one out.
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you can set the x100s to manual focusing, using the focus ring as with any RF. once you get the focus assist in your head (i prefer focus peaking rather than the split image for low light situations), you're golden. still, the AF isn't bad until you're in Available Darkness situations.
 
Olympus would be my last choice. It has the worse low light image quality, period. I would thing the Nikon D610. The Sony a7 will struggle in low light focusing.
 
SimonPJ said:
Club, pub, party sums up the situation pretty well. The X100s sounds interesting - and definitely the right size and rf form factor. I find it hard to imagine how focusing could be as easy and instinctive as with an M - given that with an M you don't need to refocus if you know you're already focused in the right area. But I guess that's just a question that can only be answered by trying one out.
Click to expand...

With the x100s you can manually focus with the ring, as has been mentioned, or just by hitting the AF lock button. Once set it will stay there until you refocus, so it's a lot like an M in that regard.
 
cosmonaut said:
Olympus would be my last choice. It has the worse low light image quality, period. I would thing the Nikon D610. The Sony a7 will struggle in low light focusing.
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I'm curious - Why would the Sony A7 struggle in low light? I haven't seen any thorough reviews of that camera yet. Is there something about the Sony sensor that makes it struggle?
 
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