Black M3 leica..comments anyone...

The last one is a first time seller with no serial for confirmation so I would stay clear of that one at least...
 
i would guess that the betriebesk one is going to go for BIG money, i would not even bid on it of i were you.
the other one is offered from a seller with no feedback, so be careful. it looks real to me though...

bob
 
#1: Looks fake to me, there is significant wear on the strap lugs but no where else.
#2: Ask the seller for a photo of the top with the serial number showing. Even then...hmm...
 
Thanks friends....but how much youd think this is a good deal for me for the first one?? maybe with a Little help from my angels...:angel:
Who knows??
Bob..
 
the second one looks bogus to me. compare the condition of the paint on the levers to the paint on the top and bottom plates.
 
bobkatz said:
Thanks friends....but how much youd think this is a good deal for me for the first one?? maybe with a Little help from my angels...:angel:
Who knows??
Bob..
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The shutter release looks fully depressed on the first one like there is no tension to keep it raised.
 
bobkatz said:
Thanks friends....but how much youd think this is a good deal for me for the first one?? maybe with a Little help from my angels...:angel:
Who knows??
Bob..
Click to expand...


it's hard to say. i think that if it's a real betriebsk factory tester camera, it's going to go for $5-10k or even more. there was a pre-production m3 on ebay last year that went up to somewhere around $70k that didn't even meet it's reserve.
this one looks like an early attempt at a black anodized finish to me, it doesn't look like black paint.
check out this link for more info...

bob

http://mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M3/M3-Betriebskamera/index.htm
 
The retainer on the self timer on #1 is not correct for that vintage of buddha lug M3, it's a very early M3 as it has the four extra screws on the top plate. The retainer is an M4 style retainer.

The body shell screw under the preview lever doesn't match the other screws, it's significantly worn.

I don't recall ever seeing an M3 of that early vintage with a preview lever. This looks to me like a very early top plate on a later M3 body...that one also has strap lug wear that belies the rest of the condition of the camera. The sync icons are filled but the close/open on the bottom plate isn't.

As the auction says, it's also got the wrong back door, a much later M2/M4 style with ASA up to 1300.

There is wear on the rails on the back, on either side of the door...

This doesn't add up.
 
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The betriebscamera looks very strange. It's black chrome rather than black paint. Could be a fake, but who would do all the efforts to produce a fake like this?
The second one looks real to me. The seller should provide more pictures of it. Could really be a beautiful black M3.

Erik.
 
digitalintrigue said:
The retainer on the self timer on #1 is not correct for that vintage of buddha lug M3, it's a very early M3 as it has the four extra screws on the top plate. The retainer is an M4 style retainer.

The body shell screw under the preview lever doesn't match the other screws, it's significantly worn.

I don't recall ever seeing an M3 of that early vintage with a preview lever. This looks to me like a very early top plate on a later M3 body...that one also has strap lug wear that belies the rest of the condition of the camera. The sync icons are filled but the close/open on the bottom plate isn't.
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could it be a tester camera for the preview lever?

bob
 
The first one is a "parts bin job". Things like back door, lugs etc dont match. The first "production" M3's in black paint was in the 901xxx range - a series of DS M3's with MP gears inside. It was a special order of 51 for the Swedish Press Association. After that a lot of them were made up with parts from later bl/p. On the original DS black paint, the filmcounter dial was black as were the triangular strap lugs and the lock/unlock key on the baseplate. I had two of these for years, one in the 901xxx and the other in the 910xxx range.
For some reason the "betriebs Kameras" bring a lot of $ - weird as they usually are beaten up! They were test benches for the factory.
IF the camera was assembled to test something, the matte black finish is OK. The medium,gloss paint that Leica used originally, was replaced with a more "flat" finish in the late 60's. If you replaced parts on an original bl.M2/M3 - the replacement parts were a different finish, more flat black.
A camera like this needs to be verified with the factory! If it is genuine - it will go big bucks, but only with proper provenance.
The 2nd one looks like an original. The wear on the strap lugs correspond with the wear on self timer lever and frame line selector. But again, it should have the correct # number and provenance checked. Remember that it is easier to "fake" a black paint camera than a chrome one. Paint, tricky as it can be is one thing. Chrome plating to matched Leica "satin" finish is difficult.
If you want a black paint M as user (not as a collector) - get a chrome and have it repainted.
Modern technology has made it possible to "make" parts and to engrave chassi's without huge costs involved.
This is very much a case of "buyer beware" - have it authenticated prior to buying it. If these are real items, one has to wonder why they are not going to the auctions instead where something like this (if it is the real thing) will go to $10-15000, even in todays slowing market.
Even if Leica Luxemburgh verifies the 1 st one - it should then be no problem having Leica/Solms verify it - in writing!
Leica has the documentation for these cameras, production lists, shipping documents and any "internal" camera would be listed as such.
 
digitalintrigue said:
#1: Looks fake to me, there is significant wear on the strap lugs but no where else.
#2: Ask the seller for a photo of the top with the serial number showing. Even then...hmm...
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Yes I did...waiting for those pictures....
Thanks a lot for advices...training eyes you have :cool:..
Bob...

Wowow thanks fellas...Really you know what are you talking about...
what a lot of knowledge...;);)
 
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Larry, a black M3 is just a black camera versus a chrome one. I prefer black cameras, but I never pay "collectors" premium for them. It is just a light tight box with some essential gears and a shutter,
From a practical standpoint, a chrome one is better. It doesn't absorb heat in hot,sunny climates and they scratch less. They do "stand out" a bit more, unless you can find a satin chrome finished T-shirt! The black ones tend to melt into a black or dark jacket or sweater, You also get a lot of comment on brassy black M's. "Oh, what a nice camera. Is it a Leica" and the "Nice looking camera - is it digital?" Both of these this morning!
 
there is a theory about ebay that every winner is a looser, because if you win you are automatically above the market-price what makes you pay more than it's worth.
ok, that's theory, but indeed it is very stupid (sorry for the expression) to ask for a price.
first of all you should consider what it's worth for you (!) and second: by asking for a value you are attracting other potential bidders and therefore you will get a higher price.
i know, these words won't help you right now and may be slightly offtopic, but you should consider my words in future questions about ebay-auctions you are interested in.
 
johnny.moped said:
ok, that's theory, but indeed it is very stupid (sorry for the expression) to ask for a price.
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gee, that's not very nice. what's wrong with asking for advice on a purchase?
for what it's worth, i noticed that bietreskamera(SP?) a few minutes after it was listed. the pool of people who can or will bid on cameras that expensive is pretty small and they're likely to know about it anyway.

bob
 
johnny.moped said:
there is a theory about ebay that every winner is a looser, because if you win you are automatically above the market-price what makes you pay more than it's worth.
ok, that's theory, but indeed it is very stupid (sorry for the expression) to ask for a price.
first of all you should consider what it's worth for you (!) and second: by asking for a value you are attracting other potential bidders and therefore you will get a higher price.
i know, these words won't help you right now and may be slightly offtopic, but you should consider my words in future questions about ebay-auctions you are interested in.
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Thanks Johnny,,, The basic thing I wanna know is: genuine item ? if so the range price ? and with this in mind I can bid some price in that range...and if I am a lucky guy maybe I can win a great camera in good bargain or low cost ¡¡¡ :p
Thats it...just I dont wanna pay for fake¡¡¡
Regards....
Bob.
 
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